Hiring the wrong employee can be expensive ⎜ Remotivate ⎜ EP 120

Ryan Cramer: What's up, everyone? Welcome to my corner of the internet, I'm your host, Ryan Cramer, and this is Crossover Commerce, presented by PingPong Payments, the leading global payments provider, helping sellers keep more of their hard earned money. Hey, what's up everyone? Welcome to another episode of Crossover Commerce. Thanks for tuning in, I'm Ryan Cramer, and this is episode 120 of Crossover Commerce. This is my corner of the internet where I bring the best and the brightest in the Amazon, eCommerce space and much more when they talk about applying to online businesses and running those businesses like we'll be talking about today. We're going to share our insights on the industry and the most important aspects of making your business grow online. The question that today we're going to really dive into is really, how can we grow an online brand and attract quality talent? And really, which job boards are best for which positions? Is there really the right talent out there or do you need to actually" headhunt" from other companies to get that talent? We'll see. We'll find out when we talk with our guest today. I'm going to dive into the cost of hiring with Anna Shcherbyna of Remotivate. As a guest, she will explain actually today, hiring the wrong employee can be expensive, and really which employees at scale you should be looking at when it comes to operations. We're going to dive into all of that today. So I titled the episode, Hiring The Wrong Employee Can Be Expensive. And we'll dive into what that means a little bit here in a second or two. But as always, Crossover Commerce is presented by PingPong Payments. PingPong transfers over 150 million a day for eCommerce and online businesses just like yours. We have helped over more than one million customers to date now worldwide and have transferred more than$ 90 billion to date. That's 90 with a B, that's a big number. So we're helping people save more money when that comes to operations, when it comes to paying their VAs, paying their suppliers and manufacturers, employees. No matter what it is, we're going to be helping in that regards. Curious for more, go ahead and check out and click on that link below in the show notes or in the comments section, and sign up for an account today. Go ahead and click on that and save it for later, obviously after this episode. That being said, thank you, PingPong as always. But about our guest today, if it's about just me, this would be one good heck of a show if I could speak today, heck of a show, but it's about my guest and the people who have expertise in their fields, and that's Anna. Anna is actually the founder and CEO of Remotivate, a remote focused recruitment agency. She is dedicated to reshaping remote recruitment, helping online businesses build and manage remote teams uniquely and sustainably. Her team specializes in hiring specialist managers, developers, and C- level roles, and she is working with many eCommerce brands, maybe like yours. Remotivate actually handles all due diligence relating to candidate communication, arranging interviews, discussing salary expectations and conducting reference checks as well. This is a done- for- you service and is online businesses with remote teams and uses a customized funnel to filter hundreds of candidates to deliver only the best ones to clients. Anna's very major focus is actually just hiring on remote centric teams, which obviously is a big topic for a lot of different companies, but we're going to specifically keep it into eCommerce businesses and what her expertise is and what she's seen over the course of her years of doing this. So welcome to Crossover Commerce, Anna Shcherbyna from Remotivate. I told you, Anna, I'm going to mess it up. I'm going to second guess myself, anytime I see your name. So I apologize to that. Anyway, thank you for coming on today.

Anna Shcherbyna: Ryan, it is a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me, honestly. And no worries, my last name is... I'm even considering changing my last name. It's that difficult.

Ryan Cramer: Guys, it's Shcherbyna, It's honestly the simplest last name that you can possibly ever say. I look at it and I want to add more consonants and more vows to it when I see it, because at speed, you're like, " Did I miss something?" But hey, that's my fault, a lot of people mispronounce my name anyways, so I'm sure y'all get back. Karma's coming for me I'm sure at some point or another, but thanks so much for hopping on.

Anna Shcherbyna: Yeah. It's such a pleasure being here. I'm excited to share a ton of information that might be helpful to your audience.

Ryan Cramer: Of course, absolutely. Anna, we are an international audience. We have people listening all over the world, India, China, Europe, here in the United States, of course, but like you had mentioned maybe in your... you didn't mention your bio, but I know you're not from the United States. You might sound like it. You've actually had worldly experience and you're located in, oh my gosh, we had this conversation before, I'm going to guess it's going to be, it's not Mexico, I want to say it's-

Anna Shcherbyna: Yes, yes. It's Mexico.

Ryan Cramer: Oh, it's Mexico. Look at that.

Anna Shcherbyna: Right now, I am in Mexico, but I am leaving in three weeks.

Ryan Cramer: To go back to Europe, correct?

Anna Shcherbyna: Yes. I'm going back to Europe, I'm missing Europe. It's been shut down for so many weeks, I feel like it's finally time to explore and get back there, but I've been in Mexico for about a year and a half now.

Ryan Cramer: Amazing. But you're originally from Ukraine. You grew up in your Ukraine or your family is from Ukraine. Well, maybe you tell us a little bit about your path to getting to where you are today, because I think your experience is super fascinating, but your lens that you look through also provides this light at which maybe we can talk about later today, international talent.

Anna Shcherbyna: Yeah, absolutely. You're very much on point. I actually grew up in the US. From five to 14, I was in the United States, my formative years, a child's formative years, but then we moved back to Ukraine. So I spent half my life in the US, half my life in Ukraine, though there's a joke going around about what part of me is really Ukrainian, and nobody can seem to tell me. It's a funny joke, but the truth is having to be in a culture, be thrown in a culture at five years old, that's being thrown in a culture because you have to pick up a lot, and a new language and all of that. And the same thing happened to me when I was 14, I had to pick up again a new language. I knew it, but not well enough. And it did define the way that I had to be flexible, learn about communication. At such a young age, how do you go into a group of friends at school or whatever it may be, and really submerge myself and be able to connect? And connection is so important to people in general, and as a child, it's like, how do you connect? And through the years, I had to consistently improve on that and understand the communication, the connection, all of that. And because of that upbringing, because having to grow up in multiple cultures, I'm also half Russian, half Ukrainian, and that's in a whole other layer as well on top of that. But it really did change the way that my life started go in terms of my career, and the career that I've chosen. So recruitment is so close to me because I got to send people from Eastern Europe, Asia, that's where I started, Central Asia, Eastern Europe, to all over the world. And the reason I was able to do it quite well from the very beginning and why I started moving up the ranks in the company that I was working for was because I was able to really connect on any level at any culture, wherever a person was from because of my past, because of what I had to do. I just never thought as a kid that, " Oh, this is going to be a career thing." And right now, a lot of companies, they do struggle with that. Hiring from different countries and cultures, it's like, " Well, how do I understand a person from a country or culture that's not my own?" And because of the way that I was raised, it's influenced a lot of the positive ways I communicate with people from all over the world and I'm able to find those touch points and I'm able to really bring out the best in people, no matter where they're from. That includes my team, that includes people when we're hiring, that includes our clients no matter where they're from as well, because of my background.

Ryan Cramer: And I think you bring up a lot of good points there, especially in the industry that our company and I know you help hire on employees in, is in the eCommerce world, it's not just a one lens that you have to look through, you have to look it through many facets, and we call that localization. We have to look at people's culture, we have to look at how they've grown up, their religious aspects. You can go be as basic as male, female, but you can go as deep as the culture they grew up in and what is and what speaks to them and then what can offend them. So I think that would be a very beneficial thing to have in your back pocket as, I don't want to talk to them this way because it might be offensive, or, " Hey, company XYZ, this is what you actually need to look for because if you're trying to hire from this portion of the world or represent from this segment of the world, you need to be very poignant on what you're asking, because you don't want to either put a bad taste in your mouth, but you want to attract and know that people are coming from a great point of view." Does that make sense?

Anna Shcherbyna: Yeah, absolutely. And I think a lot of the times what ends up happening is employers will look through their own lens and judge someone or a team member if they're not performing well, because they're looking through their own lens, how would they have done it? But if you're looking through your own culture, your own country culture, language, then a lot of the times you think someone's failing or letting you down. But the thing that I have learned and that has really helped is never judge based on your own experiences, always really listen. And I think that has really changed the game for me, is watching and listening to someone's behavior, what they're telling you, how they're expressing themselves. And this actually works great in interviews as well, is literally watching how they're reacting to different questions, not just what they're saying, but how are they reacting? And so when we take away our own filter and we're just listening and really watching a person for what they are, what they're sharing, what they're trying to communicate, it changes the game so much. And then all of a sudden, you can actually take out and realize, " Oh, this person's going through this, how do I support them that they can really shine and take off in the team, for example?" But a lot of employers struggle with that when hiring internationally.

Ryan Cramer: Right. A lot of people would say it's just an old person's mentality or just someone who doesn't associate with where people are at nowadays mentally, or just accepting in that regards. Yeah. I think it's very much of that. So I guess in that regards, how did you come into the world of HR? I feel like almost nine out of 10 or 10 out 10 people are like, " No, I didn't actually think I wanted to go in the world of human resources or hiring or developing my own company to even help with that." What was that journey for you, if you will?

Anna Shcherbyna: Yeah. You're on point. Most people don't say, " Hey, I want to grow up being a recruiter."

Ryan Cramer: "That sounds like a fantastic idea."

Anna Shcherbyna: Either you're a fireman or policeman. No, I think the reason I came into this is, I was actually studying music, my background's in music, nobody realizes this, obviously. It's a very strong thing to-

Ryan Cramer: Is it performance music?

Anna Shcherbyna: No, no, it was opera and jazz, vocals.

Ryan Cramer: Really? So singer. Okay. Got you. My wife is a music therapist, which is why I ask.

Anna Shcherbyna: Oh, wow. That's incredible. That's incredible. But yeah, that's my background. And at some point, I got invited to just help this company out. They just heard my English and they're like, " Hey, do you want to work with us?" And it was awesome because they actually had me involved in talking to all these international sponsors and clients. They sent people from Eastern Europe and Central Asia to different exchange programs. So you must be familiar with work in travel, au pair, work in China, teach English in China, hospitality in Australia. And so I got the upper opportunity of really growing in that company and developing new programs, such as work in the Emirates. We got to do different job fairs. So I actually got to do international and remote recruitment way before it wast even a thing. And I even made a joke about this recently, I realized I actually never hired for an in- office position. I never had anyone come in and be like, " Okay, you think you're going to be a good fit for our team?" I never had that. I was always hiring for other people, I was always hiring remotely, I was always hiring internationally. And this was 2012, this was many years ago where this was happening.

Ryan Cramer: You were so ahead of the game.

Anna Shcherbyna: I didn't know that I was ahead of the game, this was just something that as normal for these kind of programs, how they were working out. So that's how it all started. And I worked with that company for five years. I helped them grow quite a bit, we developed a lot of programs, did dozens and dozens of job fairs. And then I moved into the online space, and that's where things really came together because I got to see... And also my background's operations and recruitment, and that was always side by side. So I started working with a lot of online business owners. And so it was really cool being able to take this background I've had an international recruitment, international communication, understanding and connecting with people of all countries and cultures, and then bringing that into the online space and learning, of course, new ways of recruitment, but still having a lot of the mentality of, " Okay, how do I want to do things differently?" And that's the foundation that really built into Remotivate because all the things that I learned from being in old school recruitment, even though it was remote and international, still was very old school. And growing up in that, I was like, " Okay, what would I do differently? What was it something that I really didn't connect with and I want to do better?" And so a lot of those things that I had learned. And then obviously, the things that I learned from hiring for online business owners really translated into building the business and why it came to be.

Ryan Cramer: That's amazing. So you actually had a similar connection to one of our past guests, Nate Ginsburg. You worked with him or you were an employee of his or an employer?

Anna Shcherbyna: Yeah, I worked for him. He was actually the reason I got into the online space. He invited me through Upwork for a job, it was just some random job. And then all of a sudden, we got to talking. He was in Kiev and he was like, " Well, what if we work together?" And I'm like, " Okay." He's like, " I have a ton of projects and jobs that I'd love your help with. And then the ball started rolling and it was amazing. I got to see a lot of the way that he does recruitment, which is incredible, the way that he really connects and perceives people. He has an incredible gut for recruitment. So I got to learn a ton from him as well, and being able to take the things I learned from him and then future jobs, as well as my entire background in a different space and being able to take all of that into Remotivate. But he was a huge catalyst in how I got into the on online space and all of the new perspectives and a lot of the things that I got to learn about online business, it came from Nate, which is an incredible experience because now he was on recently, I'm also on and talking about all this, so it's amazing where we've gotten to.

Ryan Cramer: Nate's chilling in a villa probably in Bali still or somewhere like that.

Anna Shcherbyna: Thailand, Thailand. He's in Thailand right now.

Ryan Cramer: Thailand. See, everyone moves around on me. People just need to sit in the same spot so I can just pinpoint where they're going to stay for the rest of my existence of doing this show.

Anna Shcherbyna: Yeah, it's tough.

Ryan Cramer: It's always hard to pinpoint... So maybe that's a natural segue. People around the world, there's too many places for one person to even think about, " This person's here, this person's there." From a recruitment perspective, I'm an employer, and we talked about this a little bit yesterday on episode 119. His name is Yoni Kozminski. He actually works for MultiplyMii, his company's MultiplyMii. We talked about a lot of talent out there. It could be in competing businesses and there's an aspect that you might have to recruit away from a business, both the positive and negatives of that as you might know. But your aspect, if I'm remember correctly, you preach that there's an abundance of talent out there, you just need to know what to look for that. Maybe you can dive into that recruitment or head hunting versus looking for talent and knowing where to find it out there and maybe it's not with your competitor. Where do we go from there?

Anna Shcherbyna: Yeah. It's such a great question because I think head hunting, it has its place, but I think the world has shifted so much in the sense that now there are so many more job opportunities, whereas there are more and more people going into the online space. And so head hunting, I've seen it, I've done it, and I just don't approve. Again, it's because a lot of the times I've tried different aspects of recruitment and I saw what works and what didn't and why. And the reason why I say this, and I'll go into this a little bit, is, head hunting right now anyways, it takes a lot of time, you're sitting on LinkedIn, you're going after people who might not even be looking for a job, and you're trying to get them out of their job, which again, old school makes sense. I get where it was, it was coming from this scarcity mindset, there's not enough people, so we need to get them out of those jobs. But right now in this market, there are so many incredibly talented and available people, especially now post COVID, there's so many job people going remote and they want a job. And so the way that we go about out of this slightly different. And I just saw way more results, my entire team have seen so many more results, is sourcing by inviting candidates from platforms that are actually designed for jobs, so job boards, rather than LinkedIn. And I think what people don't realize is, LinkedIn isn't a job board per se, it's a profess all social network. And I get that people look for candidates there and people mention that they're hiring or the candidates are looking for jobs, but ultimately, it's not a job board, that is not it's ultimate goal. So people aren't just there looking for a job. Some people are, but it's not the ultimate goal. It's kind of like looking for people to hire on Facebook. Yeah, you can, but what's going to be the result? And so what we do is we actually go after the job boards that you have access to the candidates and we're inviting candidates that are on those platforms, that are available because they're on those platforms so they looking or maybe they do have another job, but they are telling you, " Hey, we're on this platform, we are looking for other opportunities or we're open to other opportunities." And by going out and inviting candidates manually, which is a little bit of a hassle up front, we found that the people that are applying are not just people that are... I'm not sure how to put this, but a lot of the times, people that are applying on their own, usually they're, I don't like the word desperate, but it means that they're just hungry for whatever opportunity they can get their hands on rather than being the right fit. So a lot of the times when clients come our way, they say, " Well, we got 100 candidates to apply, but they have no qualifications for this position. We have no idea a why they go applied." I know exactly why they're applying because they want a job and they're applying for every opportunity out there. But the people who are qualified, who are going to be actually a good fit, they're probably busy, they're probably developing their skills, they're probably working at a job. Yes. They're open for opportunities, they want an opportunity, but they're probably not sitting there hours on a day applying to every single job on every single job board. It probably isn't happening. We truly believe and we've tested that there is an abundance of amazing candidates if you are looking at the right place and you're investing up front and inviting these candidates instead of trying to post and hope for the best that these candidates will apply or running an ad even on Facebook, which to me, I don't approve of, maybe for bigger companies, but for smaller businesses, I'm just like, " Please don't. Please don't waste your money."

Ryan Cramer: See, this sounds different than the whole passive versus active recruitment. This seems like a third leg, if you will, of you're inviting people, but you're trying to build this network of individuals who might be in a position for a job. I thought there was a good point yesterday and what we were talking about of, yeah, there is talent, and people, if they have a job, right, they're not going to actively looking or applying, it might be passively. Or if there's just a good opportunity. For myself coming into this position, I was" recruited," it wasn't something I was actively looking for, but it was an opportunity that someone said," I know you're familiar with this opportunity. This is what we have defined as what we want this role to be. I think you might be a good fit for what this definition is, maybe even more, would you be interested?" And it's almost like a passive- active mentality. That's what this reminds me of. Am I on base or am I a little off?

Anna Shcherbyna: No, I think you're definitely on base. I'd say that the difference between head hunting and doing what I mentioned is, yes, it's similar that some people might still have a job, but the difference is with LinkedIn, you're there trying to convince them, whereas when they're on a job board, yes, they might be passive, but they've put their application on there so it's a different mindset. You're inviting them, but you're not trying to... You're trying to sell them the job post itself, is selling them, the information is selling them, but it's not you trying to sell them and trying to, " Let me tell you about all these amazing opportunities, why you should come work for this company." We're not doing that. We're inviting a lot of people and we're looking for hungry, motivated people. So actually, when we get to the interview phase, I ask something along the lines of, " Well, why did you decide to apply?" They're like, " Well, we're invited. We were invited." And some people do say that, but to me, I do a follow up question and I say, " Okay, you were invited, but you probably were invited by other people as well. Why this company?" I want to see that they're hungry and interested in this position because if they're just there, because they were invited, which that's what head hunting is about, you've convinced them to talk to you then, who has the upper hand? The candidate has the upper hand, but how is that going to do well for longevity? And we're looking for long term staff. So for a person it's like, " Yeah, convince me that I should work for you." That attitude, will it let last long term or will that person then just be recruited for another position somewhere else because somebody else convinced them? Whereas if the candidates that are going to be applying, even if they were invited to the job boards, if they're applying and they're like, " Yeah, well, I checked out the website, I really connect. Here's why I connect. I'm so excited. I feel like this is exactly long term what I was looking for. And I think based on the job description, the opportunities here, this is what I want," and you can see their passion and you can see that they want to be there. And that's a huge difference from, " Yeah, you invited me, tell me about your opportunity."

Ryan Cramer: Yeah. Well, I can see the connection you can have between employer and company or employer and mission, if you will. Mission goes beyond just what you do day to day, it's, " What are you trying to achieve with your life?" And if people buy into that, I feel like you would have more of a sustainable organization and more of a long term effect with employees that you bring on board. Don't get me wrong, I think a lot of people like feeling wanted, I think that's the allure of head hunting is, " Oh, lots of people want me, maybe I can get more money or I can get more perks or I can get a better title or I can travel more or vacation." There's a lot of things that you can get from feeling wanted. That being said, what are the pros to going about this way, Anna, if you think that that role is, " Hey, tell me about this?" And head hunting might just give them the power. What's the pros from this other mentality or recruitment style, if you will?

Anna Shcherbyna: Yeah. I guess what I want to point out is that if this person has been head hunted successfully, let's say you hired them and bring them on, what's to say they won't do that again?

Ryan Cramer: T's true.

Anna Shcherbyna: And it comes down to really that, is what you want to understand. It's like, " We are looking at, " How do we bring on people for the long term?" And if somebody is there because they were head hunted by great opportunities, again, in the past, that's great and that works and people are constantly head hunted from company to company, but if you're a small, just medium business, you don't have a lot of resources and time to spend on constantly bringing on new people, training them up and doing that again and again. As a bigger company, that's fine. You lose people, you get people, you have processes in place, it's fine, you have the resources. But as a small or medium business, if you finally get someone you head hunted, you convince them to come, let's say you put in six months of your time and then get head hunted by a bigger company. Well, you lost a lot. That loss is a lot bigger for smaller to medium businesses because all of a sudden, they have to go back and spend again, maybe hundreds of hours, all that money again on getting someone. And that can be really, really, really hurtful for that business. Whereas, we're looking at for that size of a company, when you're hiring the weight that I've described, and it coming from a place of finding someone who is just as qualified, but also really interested and passionate and their background is they've worked for other companies for multiple years, they're not just jumping from being head hunted to head hunted, that person you know you can invest the time in, and they will stick around, not forever, but they'll be there at least for a year or two, three, and that you can invest the time and you're not going to just lose someone and be left hanging.

Ryan Cramer: Right. So in your mind, what's a good investment of an employee sticking around? This is why I ask this question, people are not lifers anymore, they're no longer, " I'm going to stick with my company for 45 years, get my pension, get my check when I retire when I can no longer move my body." That's not the case anymore and a lot of people, especially in eCommerce, we are a lot of project focus, " I want achieve multiple things. Once I achieve it, either sell our asset, which is our business or eCommerce business, move on and do another passion project." But I also think that the service industry, which is the people helping have software solutions, whatever that might be, they also might want to do, " Hey, I want to build a certain software that I can build this, but I also want to do something in a very similar light and jump... " A lot of people jump around a lot. So with that being said, what is an achievable metric that if I'm an entrepreneur out there and I want to hire people, what should be a goal? If I'm hiring an operations manager, what would be a good, " This is how long I want to get someone on board for." And that be a win.

Anna Shcherbyna: Yeah, absolutely. In terms of time, how long you can expect for them to be around realistically, you want them to stick around for at least a year. That is ultimately what you want to go for.

Ryan Cramer: That's the ultimate threshold that, " Once we hit a year, we've done it. We did a good good."

Anna Shcherbyna: I think so because six months, they're still learning, they're still like getting incorporated in the business and the team. So the first couple of months, they're going through training, they're figuring who you are or what you want to do in the business and all of that. Once you hit a year, you've gone through that, you've already seen their progress, they have grown, you have grown, you've built a relationship. And at that point if, they do decide that it's time to move on, which it happens, they're not going to leave you stranded because you've built a relationship with that person and you know that they will make sure to build all the processes and systems. And when they do leave, they'll help you hire, they'll make sure everything's passed on correctly. But usually, it takes about a year to get there. And then sometimes once you hit that year, it's going great, the business is growing, the manager is growing and they'll continue working with you for two, three years and etc. So I'd say the year is probably a good thing to go for at least.

Ryan Cramer: Right. What would be the negative in terms of, you said it's costly to continue hiring on, is it the mainly just the time aspect? Because money is money, it's going to be in that position, it's earmarked for that person no matter what. So is the biggest loss in this regards, if someone doesn't stick around a year, is it the time aspect?

Anna Shcherbyna: I definitely think it's the time aspect, but it's not just the time aspect of hiring, it's also like you've put in the hours of training that person. And you want to make sure that you're getting your money's worth and your time's worth for investing in a person. And so I'd say, definitely yeah, that time piece is probably the biggest loss for a lot of businesses. Because money, you can always get back, time, not so much. You can ever get back the time that you spent training somebody, putting in and growing them and building the relationship. Because training, that's fine, but building a relationship with someone where they truly understand what you want, the growth that you want them to be a part of, all of that, you can't really get that back.

Ryan Cramer: Right. And that's what we talk about in our companies, too. The relationships that you build and the sweat equity, or you call it time equity, that you put into relationships with the supplier, or just other partnerships, that actually means a lot too, because no matter if it bears fruit now or later, if you go to negotiate or you're finding something beneficial, that person's more willing to bend over backward for you or to come to the table instead of somebody that says, " I need this, give it to me, and I want it at this cost." So a lot of the things where we see relationships built is obviously, you have to put in the time equity, but then also regular equity as well. So that being said, shifting over to jobs that you're seeing in our industry. In our industry, there's so many different unique ones that always pop up everywhere. PPC manager, lots of people trying to understand learn what is it that someone can be successful at running costs? We're sourcing logistics, that is a whole nother, scary, insightful, very... It's so, I want to say sticky in terms of how many different processes you have to learn in order to become a good operations manager. That being said, what are those jobs that you're looking at that eCommerce companies are putting the most time, money and effort into?

Anna Shcherbyna: I think the number one type of position, and again, there's so many roles, there's so many positions in the eCommerce, we can go on and on about it. But for the sake of this conversation, I think it's important touch base on the one that I think is the most important, which is the operations role. And there's different layers and there's different levels, but I think that's the position that once the company.... Some companies are very aware of that need, and when they get it, it's transformational. I've seen this in eCommerce businesses happen over and over as we've hired for them. But some companies are not aware of that need, they think that they need someone to do the processes. They see the different responsibilities and tasks, but they haven't named it an operations manager, They called it a VA, a PM, anything, but they've called in operations. But at the end of the day, that's what it is. Somebody who will come in and really help you. And again, there are different levels to it, of level of responsibility, level of experience based on your team size, your budget and the level of independence that this person will have. But at the end of the day, they will be one way or another connected to your operations and helping the business runs smoothly, making sure your team is being utilized properly, making sure customer support is being taken care of and that the different aspects of the business are being run properly. So I'd say operations is probably, if not, the most important piece that needs to come in for a business to really take off and grow quite fast after that.

Ryan Cramer: Well, you just named a lot of different moving parts under that one role. Is that a role that, because it's so important, that a lot of people are just either tentative or it's expensive or not a lot of people have that experience to effectively manage a team at scale or just do it all themselves? What's the number one thing that you need in an operations manager? I guess is what I'm asking.

Anna Shcherbyna: That's such a great question, because I think with an operations manager, it isn't just one thing. I know that's not the answer you were looking for, but it's just not one thing. There are many, many different aspects to an operations manager, and it comes down to figuring out what are your needs. So are you looking to have somebody help with the finance, with the HR, with the delivery, with the customer support? And that's what it really comes down to, figuring out, what is that person going to be helping you with? At the end of the day, it's processes. I know that's very generalistic, but it does come down to that. Operation managers help with improving processes, setting, creating, managing and executing on the different processes. The question is, what are the processes that are needed to be managed or created in your business? So that's what it really comes down to.

Ryan Cramer: Very cool. Well, in that regards, I think you want to make sure you're the cogs in the wheel. You're making sure everything is connected and you want to make sure that goods are getting out the door, I'm ordering in time, I'm making sure you, said customer service, which is a whole another ball game. Making sure people are happy. If something is wrong on your end... There's a lot on that plate. What would be one characteristic, and I asked this question yesterday too, when we were talking about hiring for roles, what's one characteristic that you think employers put in their job descriptions that you find either unnecessary or just not needed anymore, whether it's the amount of time that they have experience in, or just looking for a certain characteristic in a role?

Anna Shcherbyna: I would say two things here. I'd say the thing that is probably not needed that some companies still do, and they're moving away from it, but it still comes up, is bachelor's degree in business or MBA. That really is it. You don't need a degree to be successful, you need skill, you need experience, you need being a good problem solver. And that's actually something I wanted to mention that is a really important thing to add to your job description and test for. Something that connects all operation managers, and that's coming back to this as well, is they are problem solvers. There's different areas that they're problem solving, but at the end of the day, these are people you're bringing on to help you solve problems in your business. It sounds so simple, but it really is that. As a business owner, your goal, it should be anyways, is to be growing your business. But there's so many things happening on your backend that need problem solving, and so you're just ripped apart into different areas and you're spread thin. But when you get an operations manager, they are problem solvers. They're not just people you're going to give tasks to do, you're going to tell them, " Hey, we have a customer support problem or customer service problem, people are not happy," or, " Our team is really struggling and overworking. What do we do about this? Are they being overutilized? Do we need to hire?" You're giving them a actual problems to solve. And from their experience in the industry, from their experience in recruitment or marketing, whatever it may be in the different areas, they are there to help you solve problems on delivery and your backend, the day to day backend. And that is ultimately what an operations manager does, solve the problems of the business.

Ryan Cramer: Professional puzzler, if you will, of-

Anna Shcherbyna: There you go.

Ryan Cramer: ... if you got a1000 piece puzzle, and you can put it together. But unfortunately, if the pieces that are all white, it's the impossible puzzle that I see out there all the time, people are just constantly like, " All right, it's going to take some time, but we have to put it together quickly. Is that another thing that maybe people overlook, is the speed at which you can overcome a problem as well? Is that important or is it just the aspect of, " I can think through it, I might have to go my own route"? Because a lot of people are different thinkers. Does that make sense? I might get there at the end, but is speed an actual component of this as well?

Anna Shcherbyna: I think business owners generally think things move a lot faster than they do. And I talk about this from my own personal experience as business owner, I'm always like-

Ryan Cramer: I can speak about it right now too. People are like, " Fix this problem and let's get$ 3 million out of XYZ, and let's do it tomorrow." And I'm like, " Are you sure?" I don't think that's possible."

Anna Shcherbyna: It's hard. Yeah.

Ryan Cramer: Yeah. I guess setting expectations, how does one come in and say, " I'm a good fit for this role, but I need to set expectations from the get- go"? Is that an important aspect for a good working relationship for project managers like entrepreneur or CEO, whatever that title might be?

Anna Shcherbyna: Absolutely. The expectations that you said from the very beginning will define the trajectory of the relationship. That is just hands down, going to be so important. And when it comes to onboarding for any position, not only operations or PM or PPC manager, when somebody comes onboard, and I always say this, and for some reason, a lot of entrepreneurs struggle with this is have certain KPIs, have certain points of, " Hey, this is what success looks like." Because a lot of the times people are like, " Okay, well, if they work 40 hours," that means nothing. If they are not getting the job done, how many hours they work means absolutely nothing. And so it always comes down to figure out what success looks like for that position for the first week, for the first month, for the quarter, whatever it may be, and make sure the candidate knows what that success looks like and be as specific as possible. And then you know you can clearly define if someone's going to be successful or not. Now, I do want to add here, setting expectations and that time piece that you mentioned, a lot of times entrepreneurs or business owners give a certain expectation that it is probably unrealistic. It happens a lot, " We want this done in a week."

Ryan Cramer: I think it's 99% of the time it's unrealistic.

Anna Shcherbyna: It does. It does. And a good project manager, a good operations manager, a good one will tell you no. Not after the week that they're supposed to get it done, they will upfront know that, " Hey, this is not realistic." And a good operations manager, head of op CEO will challenge the business owner, will challenge the CEO and say, " Look, this does not seem realistic based on all my experiences, let's talk about what is realistic based on what you want to get done," and having those conversations. And that is really an awesome operations or head of ops does. They bring that balance to the business where entrepreneurs are always setting crazy timelines and expectations that are never delivered on, and then they get frustrated why it's not happening, but because they don't have anyone to say, " That's not realistic."

Ryan Cramer: And I think that's super important too, because it's a communication style that you need set from the beginning. You don't want to be a month in and say, " Oh, actually that's not a possibility, I need at least like three more weeks or six more weeks," or something like that. You've peed off your employer, you don't feel like you have lived up the expectations or you knew from the beginning and you just didn't figure it out. I think that's why my favorite question to ask to potential employers or employees is, what do you want to achieve in the first week, three weeks, three months, six months year, what does that look like? Because from my perspective, if I'm an employee or potential employee going to the circumstance, this is what I think, if they can't forecast what they want this role to achieve in the first year or couple of months, they don't know what this role is going to want to do. They have no clue of what is going to be defined by this role. And I think that's a red flag for me as an employee, potential employee what this company is, if they can't forecast what they want to achieve in an upcoming year, whether it's KPIs, goals, achievables, or, " Hey, this would be nice if we could do this." Even that is a good indicator of what they're trying to move towards. That's really hard to attract good talent, I would think, instead of someone being there, it's like, " Okay, sounds good. I'll cash my checks and show up every day and just put in time punch essentially." I don't think that's what a lot of people want to do. No matter what time it takes, they want to know that they're going towards an ultimate goal. That being said, is there anything you wanted to add to that? That was more of a thought question.

Anna Shcherbyna: No, no, it's a good point you mentioned it from the employee side, but I think from an employee side, a lot of the times people don't really think that through, a lot of people who are starting out or just a few years in their industry, they're not really thinking about asking those questions from their employers. So I think you brought that up, it's something employees should do, but I think the problem actually comes up way more on the employer's side because they hire someone with certain expectations that they don't communicate and they don't discuss or agree upon. And then three to six months in, something that I hear is, " Well, we hired this person and they're not doing well, but we're not really sure why." And they want to let them go, but they don't really know how to communicate that or why that happened, but it's because of lack in those expectations or what success looks like, because they see the candidate more as putting out a fire. The mentality as an employer is, " I'm hiring for them to do a certain task or put out a fire." It's not, " I'm hiring this person because I want this to be successful, and here are the metrics." Most employers don't think of it from that mindset, they're thinking of, " What fire do I need to put out? What tasks do I need to get completed?"

Ryan Cramer: See, and that's a reactionary mentality. That's something that a lot of people struggle with. And I personally haven't gone through many reactionary managers, employers, where they're like, " Hey, this effectively, we lost a bunch of subscriptions, get it back." Instead of, " How do we effectively keep those people on longer, or how do we make it more valuable in this aspect?" Reactionary management in my opinion, is the quickest way to lose your either title or your trust from employees, or your board, or whatever that might look like. And not calling out anyone specifically, but just as all the different industries I've been in, if you're reactionary to some sort of pandemic, for example, you have to react to that way, then you might be three, six months down the road before you've problem solved. But if you've been forecasting, say worst case scenario, if I'm selling on Amazon and I am just selling on Amazon, what if all of a sudden Amazon just shuts down, which actually happen for a lot of sellers, how am I going to be sustainable? Worst case scenario, if my ship comes into port and I can't get it in the actual three months, and maybe it's sitting there for four months, there's time periods where you say, what if, and you're planning for the worst case scenario, but be pleasantly surprised by the best case scenario, and operate under that, guys. I think that's where you see the best managers and employers versus the people who just stay stagnant or they just stretch it out as long as they can and say, " You know what, I didn't actually achieve everything I could have."

Anna Shcherbyna: Absolutely. And I think something important to note here as well is that when you work with startups, they can't really think long term a lot of the time, most smaller business.

Ryan Cramer: You have what's called a runway, you actually know how long you can operate for until you run out of money. That is an actual, beautiful thing to an aspect or to a component of, " This is what we have to do in this component of time. These are our goals and metrics, otherwise, we won't be here anymore." That's a beautiful thing in my mind, but it's also a very scary thing for a lot of people. So sorry to interject there.

Anna Shcherbyna: No, no, absolutely. But you make a good point. But I just also want to mention, there are startups or smaller businesses that actually just don't know, let's say they didn't receive like a chunk of money, they're just on their profit, they don't have that long term view. They don't know what's going to happen in a year. But in those situations... because that's what they say. They're like, " Anna, well, how can I set expectations for a year forward or six months forward, I don't know what's happening tomorrow?" But you still can plan for a month. You still can take a chunk of time and plan for that and then communicate success to your team members according to the timeframe that you can look into. So let's say maybe things will change every month because the profit might change every month or your revenue's different and you have to adjust based on what's happening in the business, and be more reactive, it does make sense. But you still have a month or a quarter, you can still plan. And so in those situations for those smaller businesses, I say, well, take whatever time period that you can plan for and communicate that to your team. Have a team call every month if you need to, and make sure you checking in what success looks like, what are the goals you're trying to achieve, and then who is actually succeeding in those goals and who's failing, and making sure to communicate that on a regular basis, not like a year in and you're like, " Yeah, Peter, you've been not doing so well all year." It needs to be consistent.

Ryan Cramer: Well, and that's the thing too, everyone, if I'm an entrepreneur listening to this and I'm sitting there with the team of like three, and I really want to scale my business in the end of 2021, early 2022, I'm going to start planning right now. I need to be forthcoming with my expectations from the get- go. And I think that's where a lot of small and medium- size entrepreneurs in this space struggle with is being honest with people when they want to hire them on, whether it's an operations manager or someone running marketing, " Hey, we're a three- person team, this is our expectation, these are our goals set forth."" We're trying to grow in at least one or two more avenues, if you will, or marketplaces, that's our expectation. And as we grow, we can add more help to these roles, but we need you to know from the very beginning, that's not going to happen right away." And so that sets you as an employee on record to say like, " Listen, I'm telling you upfront, this is going to suck maybe for you, but if you're really willing to go down the road, it's going to grow quickly and you will get to see those achievables later down the road and those goals and all those things that you want to achieve. If you want to grow something with me, this is the opportunity, but from the get- go, this is what you can expect." So even in setting precedent from the get- go like that and just have a candid conversation, you can't be mad with somebody if they're like, " Yeah. That sounds great." Because down the road, they're like, " I didn't think that this was going to be the case for this long." " Well, I told you before you accepted your job." And so I think setting those expectations is number one key component. Want to pivot a little bit with you, Anna, I'm just curious too, a lot of times I hear about employees hiring VAs, which are virtual assistant over maybe a full- time employee. Full- time employee may come with benefits, cost, 401( k) s, just a little bit more costly than a virtual assistant might. What's your take on hiring a virtual assistant and using them for simple tasks versus hiring someone full time that's dedicated to the company that you might have to invest a little bit more in to?

Anna Shcherbyna: I would say you can actually do both. And here's what I mean. When you're hiring internationally, what a lot of online businesses are doing is they're bringing those people on a contract basis. So they're contractors on paper, but they're treated as employees, and that's really what it comes down to. And that will help with the budget if you're a small business, you don't have a big budget, so you can build out an entire team on a contractor base, so it's not like registered employees, they're contractors. And the salaries might be different based on the countries where they're from, but they're treated like a team and they're grown like a team and you're investing them like a team. And that really makes the difference. So it's not one or the other, you can actually combine it. And the second thing you mentioned about VAs, well, it's awesome if you need people who actually you're giving certain tasks and you're saving time and they need to deliver. They need to help you save your time by doing certain admin tasks. Amazing, but you can bring that person on full time on a contractor basis. So I'd say, combine those two things.

Ryan Cramer: Well, that's good. That's good idea. So when I'm looking for these, we didn't talk about where you're searching for talent really. It's not on LinkedIn obviously. Where are the best places to find talent that would fit these roles? Because first and foremost, you need to have a clear picture of what you want. You can't just throw a title out there. We all know that people search for different roles differently than another person down the road, operations manager or COO, or we talked about one role could be all those different titles. Where do you find talent? Where is the best place to look as an employer? And then as an employee, where's the best place to put yourself out there?

Anna Shcherbyna: Yeah, absolutely. There are a few places that personally we've done and we work in that have been great for finding awesome long- term candidates. We love Indeed, especially if we're hiring from North America for remote staff, it's actually grown quite a bit. We love AngelList. They're a bit smaller, but the quality of candidates is great. And I think candidates are pretty happy with the transparency of employers on there as well. So AngelList is awesome for all kinds of positions surprisingly. It's not just like what it used to be. The mentality used to be, oh, there's just startups on there looking for people that are just going to go for the equity. It's really shifted. There's a lot of online businesses looking for remote staff. So I'd say AngelList has been amazing. And one that's going to surprise most people, and it does continue surprising most people is Upwork. Upwork is generally considered to be very short- term project based, but a lot of the times when people are new to the platform, they haven't really made it yet, and they're looking for some consistent income. So if you go after those candidates that have an entire background but they're looking for something stable and they haven't really made in the platform, you're able to hire for long- term staff. So it's quite amazing in terms of using Upwork in that way as well. So Indeed, AngelList, and Upwork are the biggest ones for us personally. There are few smaller ones, things like Dynamite Jobs, JobRack is for Europe. Those are a few of the smaller ones that also you can utilize, but the bigger ones have done wonders for us personally when it comes to hiring remote staff.

Ryan Cramer: What would be a tip as an employee if you're trying to get with a specific company or industry or work for an individual, do you engage with them right away or go onto a platform like a LinkedIn, listen to them, interact with their content? What are the best ways to stand out amongst other talent out there? Because it is a competitive market. A lot of people are hiring right now, which is fantastic, but how do you stand out if you're going into a competitive landscape like eCommerce and you want to work for the best of the best, if you will.

Anna Shcherbyna: Yeah, absolutely. I have a friend who's actually a remote job coach and has an entire course on this, which is really interesting, but his whole philosophy is building relationships. For example, if you have a friend on LinkedIn who has a friend who knows someone who works at that company, you can get the introductions to get to that person. And having an introduction is a lot warmer than just sending out your application. And even for me, I've had sometimes and I don't encourage this, but some of the people that have reached out to me and I see that they're actually a quality candidate for a position and they didn't go through a process, but I saw that they really, really stand out. I was like, " Oh wow, they've reached out. I really appreciate this." They've explained why they're a good fit, it's not just an application. So I have considered some people that way, rarely, and I don't encourage this as I said, but the thing is that it's a warm lead when somebody is like introduced, or get some introduction or recommendation. So that's one piece. Another thing that has actually worked for some of my friends, and it's been extraordinary into getting into really tough companies that don't really take a lot of chances or there are very few open positions or there're too many applicants, they run Facebook ads to the staff members of that company. I think that's brilliant. I think that's so brilliant.

Ryan Cramer: I've seen people run PPC ads on Google if they try to search for somebody too, or if they're searching for the company, they'll say, " Hi, hire me." And they've been successfully hired because of that. Again, it takes a technical minded. This is what I've found for a lot of different, unique ways to stand out, me personally hiring people, but then also watching other people get hired for specific roles, you need to find a way to stand out, but also do it in an artisanal way that it showcases your abilities and talents. So if you are an artist or a graphic artist, or someone of design capability, have a portfolio ready that you can point people into the right direction, or just showcase your talent. If I'm a podcast host and I want to talk to somebody about content management or anything like that, I'm going to have a series of like playlists, I'm going to say, " Check it out, I have 300 episode of me talking, go for it. Here's my highlight reel," or whatever that might be. Or if you're an operations manager, show the numbers of like, " Grew from this to X to Y." But if you're someone like PPC, I think you can get super creative, and like you said, run ads, marketing manager, just somebody that can stand out, will 100% work all the time, I will say that, but you're investing in yourself and you're willing to stand out in that regard. So I think that's super cool. Before the top of the hour, I'm just curious to say, what do you think that as remote hiring continues, and I don't think it's going to slow down, you might see initial dip, but I think that remote hiring is here to stay. We talked about Upwork, we talked about all these different platforms, which we partner with, what is the future hold for remote hiring? What do you think that looks like for the rest of this year going into 2022?

Anna Shcherbyna: Oh, that's an interesting question. I think innovation, and this industry, and I'll explain why I say innovation. This industry is so behind, recruitment is so behind. And I even give the example of, there's a nine- figure company that came to me a while back and they work with like hazes and they're like, " Well, we usually work with these multi- million dollar recruitment companies." And then I ask them like, " Why are we having in this conversation then if you have these huge companies that are doing recruitment for you?" And the answer is they don't know how to hire remote staff. They don't know how to hire remotely internationally. A lot of recruitment companies have always hired in a particular city, in a particular country for a particular position, let's say for a developer. But if somebody comes to you and says, " Hey, I need an operations manager in Latin America with this experience, and this background," a lot of those companies don't know what to do. They don't have that experience, they haven't really done this before. And I'm talking huge multi- million dollar companies that lack the experience of well, where do we get these candidates from? And so I really believe, especially in this coming year, in the next six to 18 months, a big thing that's going to happen is just the recruitment space in general is going to become more innovative. It's going to start pushing because they are now, it's not a point of if they can do something, it's, they need to adapt or they will die, because everyone's going remote, people are going international. People are going to be starting to hire internationally more and more and more. And these companies have to become more innovative, more forward thinking, more adaptive, or they will fall behind and go bankrupt because obviously the needs of all over the world of employers are changing. Those are some of my thoughts regarding where we're going.

Ryan Cramer: Absolutely. And then I would also add on to that resources to support those international employees. If you're in an office setting, it's easy to say, print off of our printers or whatever you need in terms of that regards, but having policies in place from the get- go I would say that expectations, we talked about that before, expectations of when, and if you want people to meet up in person, going to events, going to networking opportunities, and then also continuing education, I would think. Making sure all these are at the forefront of how are we even remotely going to support you to continue your own fostering of growth, we can't do it in person all the time, but we can support you in whatever aspects or avenues you deem reasonable as an employee and employer a relationship. So I think as that continue to innovate, I think you'll see a lot more talent, the shift in people onboarding and really start to see people, people I mean employers stand out in that regard. So that's fascinating. I'm excited to see what the future holds. It was a shock when people had to go home, use their laptops and figure out, what do I need to do with a home office? Or do I have a home office opportunity? Or I'm going to sit at the kitchen table? But now people are like myself built in my own office, or this is office life versus home life in that regards. Is it difficult? Have you seen people adjust... Has it been a difficult transition? Do you think that the people have been 100% remote versus in- person or for the most part it's been pretty easy transition?

Anna Shcherbyna: I don't think it was an easy transition, but I think that now most people have transitioned, they are not going back. There are articles, I believe recently, about how Apple and Google are trying to get people back into the office. People would rather give up their jobs, give up a really good salary, they would rather give all of that up than go back into the office because they've realized they don't have to waste hours and hours on commuting to work, spending all that time away from home. And it's giving up their balance of life. And they've learned that they can be more productive at home because all of a sudden they can choose different hours that they can work. They can take an hour and go to the gym. They have so much more possibility and so much more balance and more productivity. And once they realized that, even though it was a hard transition, once they realized that, many people are not going back, they are not willing to go back. They would rather find a new job than do that.

Ryan Cramer: Yeah. Word of caution for all employers out there, make sure that your employees are happy within, not forcing them to go back. It might have to be a job that is in- person and a lot of us understand that, but if that's the case, and you don't have to, and you can do it effectively remotely, start thinking about that, how to put systems in place. So that's awesome. Hey, working, and where can people, not to shock everyone. Hey, everyone. Where can people either learn about you, Anna, or connect with Remotivate? Where can people connect in that regard?

Anna Shcherbyna: Yeah, absolutely. The best way to connect with me as well as what we do in getting extra help with remote recruitment is via our website, letsremotivate. com. I would say my LinkedIn is also possibility, but try to spell my name out will be very difficult.

Ryan Cramer: Guys, there's lots of Ss and Hs in there. I'm just kidding. There's it's quite a few.

Anna Shcherbyna: There are quite a few.

Ryan Cramer: Though if you're watching this on LinkedIn, actually we tagged Anna, just click on her and connect with her, follow her as well. Good content as always that you're posting out there. What's something you're working on personally moving into the remainder of the year? Is it something that you're personally on for the company or yourself, or what what's that one thing you're working on?

Anna Shcherbyna: Well, one of the things that we're working on, I guess this is more of like things to come, so to speak, is we've done a lot of work for employers and clients, but something that I'm very passionate about and hope that we... and we're working on these projects and hopefully we'll be able to do you more for the candidate side, helping more and more people learn how to work online, where to post, how to interact, what to do with an application, all of that is something I'm very passionate about, just because of my background and all of my stories. And so I really want to give more people information, access to that information and knowledge so they can start working online as well. So those are some of my- to- come goals. It's not tomorrow or in a week, but it's months down the line. I'm really looking forward to working on those type of projects.

Ryan Cramer: You've approached your manager and you've set expectations, right?

Anna Shcherbyna: There you go. Exactly.

Ryan Cramer: Exactly. Bring them full circle, you've told yourself, " This is my expectations for myself."

Anna Shcherbyna: Much so.

Ryan Cramer: Yeah, exactly. You're all on the same page. And also I would be remiss to ask, with this is going on worldwide right now as we're currently speaking, it's a Prime Day with two deals, days of epic deals, June 21st and 22nd. Not sure if you're a big online shopper or have bought anything yet. What's your thoughts around Prime Day or any" holiday" in the eCommerce and Amazon space?

Anna Shcherbyna: That's a good question. Because I'm Ukrainian, because I'm mostly European, we don't really... I guess, is Prime Day a thing in Europe or is it mostly US space?

Ryan Cramer: It is happening in Europe right now. The only two locales that I think... I know for sure Canada's not happening right now. There might be one or two other locations that's not happening just because of logistic reasons and with COVID spikes. I think India was the other one that I recently heard that they pushed that. Otherwise, Amazon marketplaces all around the world are having Prime Day. So that's just again, middle of the summer arbitrary, fictitious holiday that a lot of people are like, " Oh" like the greeting card industry. This is like the eCommerce industry, we're just making up things to sell products. No, just curious what your thoughts are, if you're a partaker because you're-

Anna Shcherbyna: Not really honestly. Not really. A lot of my American friends are partaker, they're like, "Prime Day, Prime Day." And I'm like, "Huh? What?" It's like Black Friday, I didn't really grow up with Black Friday. So for me it's like, "Ah, Black Friday." Same thing with Prime Day, I'm like, " I've heard of it, I know what it is, but I'm not really partaking."

Ryan Cramer: It's a thing. Absolutely. And it's good day for our sellers but it comes and go with people. Buying certain things, again, it's just a shot in the arm for people to"get deals." That's my background is, how do you get a good deal on products and where do you find those good deals? And is it on an actual day or is it not even a deal? So I was curious to get your take on that, but that being said, I'm super excited to have you on, Anna, just really excited to talk through things with remote hiring, obviously where people are growing and just a lot of great tips in terms of both on the employers side, just not to waste their time, money, and effort, and on the employee side that we got to take away from that. So I thought there was a lot that I took away from this personally, I have a ton of notes I've been taking down this whole time. And so I hope everyone who is listening to this as well, if you have a question, you'll reach out to Anna and her team over at Remotivate, growing business and all focused on remote hiring as well. So lots of great stuff today. Thanks so much for hopping on.

Anna Shcherbyna: Yeah, it was a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me, Ryan.

Ryan Cramer: Yeah. Anna Shcherbyna from Remotivate. Look at that. See, I said it quickly and it worked. Oh my gosh, How did even not think about that, but thanks for hopping on Crossover Commerce. Again, everyone, if you're watching this live, or if you're re- watching this on our platforms, on our website, thanks for tuning into Crossover Commerce. This was episode 120, we're talking about hiring the wrong employee can be expensive. And obviously, we deep dived into so many different topics about hiring remote employees as an employer and employee. Such great stuff for Anna and her team. Go ahead and check them out. Again, all the links are going to be in the show notes below. If you have questions, go ahead and reach out to Anna on LinkedIn, or you can just put it in the comments section, we'll make sure we get you in touch with her and her team. I'm Ryan Cramer, this is Crossover Commerce. Make sure you stay tuned and follow us on social media on both Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube, or Twitter. That's where we go live on our shows, but also where we announce upcoming episodes. We're going to have some great episodes coming up tomorrow. Two for one with Casey Gauss, Jeff Cohen of Thrasio and Seller Labs, respectively and myself. We're going to be deep diving into some of the things that they found in terms of their product listings. And we're going to be sharing some of those insights that they found as well. And then on Thursday, we're going to be talking with James McConnell Jr. about inventory limits. So we're going to be talking about the sourcing logistics nightmare that every Amazon seller is going through right now and where to navigate the field. So that being said, go ahead and stay tuned when we come live on Crossover Commerce. But thanks for tuning in to episode 120 today. Take care.