Podcasting for Brands ⎜ Pikkal & Co ⎜ EP 170

Ryan Cramer: What's up everyone. Welcome to my corner of the internet. I'm your host Ryan Cramer and this is Crossover Commerce presented by PingPong Payments, the leading global payment provider, helping sellers keep more of their hard- earned money. Hello everyone, once again, to another episode of Crossover Commerce, you've made it, this is my corner of the internet. Let's try that again, corner of the internet, where I bring the best and brightest Amazon experts, industry experts in the e- commerce world and today's no exception. This is Crossover Commerce, episode 170, you've made it, you've arrived. Thank you for tuning in live listening or watching wherever you might be doing so, whether it be on social media, on LinkedIn, Facebook, YouTube, or Twitter, or if you're listening to this on your favorite podcast destination channel. Or you might be finding us on PingPong's website, usa. pingpongx.com/ podcast, that's where all of our content lives, transcripts, links, resources of all of our past 169 guests we'll add this one to that mix as well, so go ahead and check that out. But before we get started, as I alluded to earlier, every episode here is presented by PingPong Payments. Crossover Commerce is presented by PingPong Payments because no it's not a table tennis company, they are a cross border payment solution, helping people save time, money, and effort. Whether you're selling online as an e- commerce branch or you're just a business looking for more effective ways to save money when paying out your employees, your VAs, your manufacturers, your distributors, whatever entity as a business level you need to pay on a internationals landscape. Don't pay the fees with certain banking solutions or B2B or such as like PayPal or anything like that. You want to make sure that you are saving fees when paying out people, put that money back to your bottom line and put it towards something better than just paying to use that service. Check out PingPong Payments today and you won't be disappointed. Five clicks to sign up and once approved you get$ 500 in your account. Go ahead and sign up today. That link could be found in the comment section or in the show notes if you're listening to us. Thank you PingPong Payments for presenting Crossover Commerce. That being said, episode 170, it feels like every 10 episodes becomes like a nice round number and we get to talk about fun things, that always almost naturally happens this way when we schedule out these podcasts and today's no exception. I'm really excited to be talking about the thing that you are listening to on or watching us on and that is podcasting for brands. That is something that a lot more people, to be honest as a podcaster and as a host of this show, I see more and more people in businesses and brands starting to develop a podcast channel. Why is that? It's not because it's trendy or it's a fad, it's actually for lots of great reasons that I'm starting to see more people are investing in it. It's free content to create for the most part, whether it's resources and you have things such as software solutions, or you have just people resources that you need to tie to and then having a perspective. But what does that mean on a business level? Individually, you can have podcast ranging for any sort of topic from murder mysteries, to education, to business, to health and wellness, all those kinds of things. And it can range across different types and areas. We'll get into the weeds of that, but that is what we are talking about today, that is what this episode is about. Podcasting for brands that is what this title of this episode is going to be called for. Excuse me. We brought in today Prarthana Sibal of Pikkal& Company, she is head of client services at a award winning podcast agency. She has managed over a thousand podcast episodes from idea to launch, which is fantastic. So she has a scope she's been around and done way more of these than I have certainly or maybe that people have listened to in their lifetime, but she is an expert in branding, public relations, corporate communications, brand reputation, and of course, podcasting for brands. So that's why we brought her on today to talk about podcasting for brands. Why you might be interested, maybe this will push you over the edge to get started today but that is why we brought her on today. Welcome to Crossover Commerce Prarthana Sibal of Pikkal& Company. How are you Prarthana?

Prarthana Sibal: Hi, Ryan. I'm great. Thanks for having me.

Ryan Cramer: Yeah, of course. Thank you for joining us Prarthana, excuse me, super late at night, it's very late. You're in Singapore, correct?

Prarthana Sibal: That's right.

Ryan Cramer: We were talking to each other about this. The world never sleeps in because this is live, I appreciate the time and that I don't want to waste more of it. Tell me a little bit about getting into podcasting, it's not been around for I would say too terribly long. But why is this the channel that you found maybe your expertise was going to allude towards this or your passion started to develop for this? What was that driver for you?

Prarthana Sibal: So I actually got into podcasting around three years back, so this is my third year with Pikkal& Co. And when I started out, I remember just listening to some of the podcasts, like HBR IdeaCast. So not too much aware of the business or the commercials behind the podcast, but that is how I came across Pikkal& Co. That time I remember the team was doing their own podcast series called Asia Tech podcast. Our founder Graham Brown had already done around 300, 400 episodes with that podcast, and that was ranked as one of Asia's biggest and the most episodes growing podcasts for a long time. So that was very interesting, but how I actually came into podcasting for brands is that a lot of companies started reaching out to us saying that," What you're doing for yourself, for your own company, can you help us do it for us? So can you help us start our own podcast because increasingly we are looking at own the content rather than just being featured on some other publications." So that's how I think it was more towards, we were going towards where the demand was and it was totally the market was pulling us in that direction.

Ryan Cramer: Well, that's fantastic. And there's so many different ways, I think it's one of the more misconceived channels if you will of, does it cost a lot to do? What's the time involvement of a podcast? Am I going to be able to steam it out? Doing this for so long I'm sure like you, if listeners are taking a look at this and saying," What are the stats that actually make this viable for me to invest my either time or resources in?" What are those things that stand out to you or that you tell your clients on a day- to- day basis.

Prarthana Sibal: If you see, if you want to go with some top level stats actually welcome to world of 2 million podcast.

Ryan Cramer: I know, right. There's a lot out there.

Prarthana Sibal: Exactly. So there are 2 million cross in the world today. Let's use this enology, that's the number of websites that were there back in 1998. And today there are 1.7 billion websites, so just in podcast terms, we are still very much in the early stages, but still there's a lot of growth there. So if we are comparing it to the websites or that kind of content piece, but other than that the kind of stats that really comms or branding or the marketing individuals can use to sell that case study internally to their CEOs, I actually break it down into three. The first one being there are one billion people listening to podcasts weekly around the globe. And with the global pandemic expediting decision making to seek out these new ways to reach out audiences, in scalable and authentic formats like podcasts are on a different level of boom all together. The other stats that is coming out is and this is again the global stats that I have, but a lot of people who are listening to podcasts are younger and more influential. Your podcast listeners can be aging anywhere, can be aged anywhere between 18 to 34 years and a VP or C- level within their organization. So you'll be a bit more confident that even if you're investing into this space or this medium, you're actually reaching out exactly the right kind of audience there. And the last part I'll actually say that as compared to other media, podcasts have really high level of self- reported engagement. So where social media can be fleeting and often fake, podcasts are engaging and real. So podcast gives brands that opportunity to tell their story in their words, in a format that is authentic and engaging. So if you use these three stats, I think that's going to help you sell the idea of podcasting within your organizations for sure.

Ryan Cramer: Absolutely. And I think speaking personally, it has so many different unpronounced effects. I would think brand recognition that's number one, but there is content awareness or just being able to be a thought leader in a specific place. We're talking about podcasting for brands on a traditional e- commerce but also branding podcast channel. And this can have just reaching effects too, I have all these conversations with CEOs, CMOs, brand leaders, sellers, just business owners in general that say," I came across your podcast and listened to a couple episodes." And that's a very, very cool reach because a lot of people think that," Oh, I'm just going to post on social media, everyone's going to see it." That's not the case. Algorithmically, people will just can't see all of their friends or contacts or just in general, if you're connected with somebody via email or social media, just that reachable nature doesn't exist like something almost like a podcast can, if that makes sense. Because they're either opting into it, whether it's a subscription or there is that nature of is that the most engagement level that you can have with either your customer or your potential partner or anything like that, how does that stack up with the other traditional media?

Prarthana Sibal: So for that, let's look at the different objectives that an organization can have because with other social media, I think it's more towards the hygiene now that you need our LinkedIn channel, you need to have a YouTube channel. But with podcasts, it's not a necessity or there's no urgency to have it. So still how we can sell the idea of podcasts to an organization is how they can measure the success of it actually depends on, whether the podcast is making a difference in their business objective or in their business strategy or not. So let's say that your objective was campaign awareness. So if it is around a certain report that you're releasing or something like that or particular campaign, then the partner strategy has to be aligned towards that. It be like a docuseries positioning, the brand as a platform for vital societal conversations that matter. We can build a podcast series around issues the brand cares about, so it can be around diversity, climate change, it can be around public health, for example. Then if your objective is brand authority or thought leadership, then as a strategy, you can position the people of the brand as experience in understanding the challenges faced by the clients. So the content if you see here differs if you are changing the objective, rather than just doing your simple interview style, that's how you can make sure that the strategy is aligned with your business objectives. So for brand authority, you can build the podcast around key concerns and uncertainties of the market. Let's talk about, as you said Ryan business development if that is your business objective, like you want CEOs and CMOs to have an opportunity to speak to them, there can be no other way but podcast to actually have that private and that really intimate conversation, I would say. Just imagine somebody's listening to you for 40, 45 minutes or... Let's not just talk about listeners but as a guest, you're speaking to someone for 40, 45 minutes straight, that is a very intimate conversation. And for a business development, a series featuring meetings between these company leaders and prospects or clients, I think it's a very effective way to create a podcast strategy around it. So these are three different objectives you can have, but ultimately to ensure that you have a sustainable podcast like Ryan I'll say, in your case, you are already on the 170 episode. People tend to drop off after six episodes, that's what is considered as pod fade.

Ryan Cramer: Which is crazy to me and I actually learned that well after I got to episode six, and that was the statistic that everyone considers this point of which they don't do it. Again, everyone has a great idea, they implement it, they get their first couple guests on. But it's that consistency route which I think was why this podcast has been so successful is we're going to do this anywhere from, and again, there's no set schedule. Some people have it like every two days on Tuesday or Thursday or every Thursday is a new episode. That's fantastic because people can expect new content to come out. And it holds you as either a creator or a brand accountable to release it on that... it's that trust factor that you built up over time. This because it's live, it's not recorded, I can't just produce it whenever it's set around specific times, whether you're in the different part of the world or whatnot, that's the nature of which it's different. But after seven episodes it's hard to imagine that just so many people drop off and they call it pod fade. That is a term listener, it's a thing. If you're listening to a podcast and you think," Why didn't they make more content?" It's because they just ran out either ideas or motivation or something along those lines, is that true or are you seeing other...

Prarthana Sibal: This is very true Ryan. Actually that is one of the things, brands especially they start a podcast and after four to five episodes they're like," Okay, why did we start the podcast in the first place?" The reason or the answer that they have maybe it comes down from the CEO saying that," Okay, we need to have a podcast." And they say," Okay, let's do it." But if they don't have a business subjective behind it then they won't really have a reason to keep investing into it and continuing it. Because ultimately still podcasts it's a long term game, especially if you're talking about a B2B podcast here, not just B2C. If you're going for a B2C port trust, fine, you can do short series, get millions of downloads and get some advertising revenue out of it, that's great. But for a B2B podcast if you want to reach out to the right listeners, it's definitely a long term game you need to invest in.

Ryan Cramer: Do you subscribe to video podcasting or is audio.... audio is like the original, it's just recording a voice, we can sit in our own rooms respectively or it's in the same studio, it'd be like a radio interview. Do you subscribe or see this growth in video podcasting? Or is it just by nature because of the pandemic you saw a lot more video become apparent just to kind of have the interaction.

Prarthana Sibal: Yeah. Interestingly, during the pandemic, especially the episodes that we have done, especially the new podcasts that we have launched, they have all been audio. The video is just there for conversation purposes, so it's switched on still during the recording for conversation purposes, the actual format that is coming out of it is still audio. The reason for that is we are actually seeing a shift from video towards audio more during pandemic, because people are so fed up of meetings and just looking at their screen and looking at it for hours and hours without having a work life balance, especially. So just audio plug in in your earphones is actually making a huge difference and is actually leading to a higher engagement also and increase in the podcast listeners, within Asia that's the trend that we are seeing here. In fact, there was a bit of a debate going on that initially podcast listeners were listening to podcasts usually during commute. So when they're traveling to office, if they're in the metros, if they're in the tubes or if they're in the car they tend to listen then. And then they're like," Okay, now that the commute has gone away, are we still going to have podcasts listeners or not?" But actually it has turned the other way around, the podcast listeners have increased, there's a huge jump. The reason is totally because people want to while they're jogging, while they're just multitasking they tend to listen to or plug in some earpiece. This video versus audio debate will never end for sure, I get this question a lot. But see it in this way that a YouTube video, it has an average of 80 seconds of watch time per video wise if you see.

Ryan Cramer: Right, it's not a lot.

Prarthana Sibal: It's actually not a lot, 80 seconds that's hardly anything. And then that too the content has to be way too... like the thumbnail has to be way too fancy and the title has to be like a click bait or something and then you're going to get even that 80 seconds of people's attention. But with the podcast the listeners who actually start listening to it, 45% of them actually end up listen to 75% of the podcast. So if a business podcast is on average 45 minutes or so, just imagine 45% of the listeners are listening to 75% of it. So that is a huge win for a brand, if they really want fans, rather than just viewers, eyeballs or earballs. If they really want people to connect with the brand and they want fans out of it, that's not a term, actually, a lot of people use in B2B space, but this is what everyone is looking out for. They want people to keep coming back to their podcast, listening to it, interacting with you because you never know, ultimately, these are the listeners who can turn into your potential clients.

Ryan Cramer: Absolutely. I agree with all that. We go back to that pod fade or why people either stop a podcast or get disheartened and they quit. I think a lot of it is looking at the numbers initially because most people that I actually look up to in this industry, but also in podcasting in general is the reason why they're successful is there's a consistency factor. They didn't just get millions of subscribers or thousands of downloads in the first episode, unless you are a celebrity of some sort and can blast out your channel that already exists. Doesn't exist. Doesn't happen. You kind of get your footing. So there is growth factor and lots of people just see that natural progression of you're consistent, you're going to see this opportunity come about you. Do you think that's why a lot of brands either abandon this opportunity or they just are more numbers focused instead of," Hey, this is just going to be a long term relationship gain of trust, content awareness, numbers aren't as important," than more of that consistency factor and kind of awareness factor, how do you balance the two if people are like that?

Prarthana Sibal: Yeah. So Ryan, a lot of actually education needs to be done in this space and the space is still evolving and especially if you see from B2B metrics point of view. B2C, it's very clear, it's downloads, it's your subscriber numbers, it's your advertising dollar that you're able to get out of it, that is very clear. But within B2B, whenever a potential conversation comes to me, it's more towards," Okay, how many downloads can we expect from episode one?" And to your point about, are you a celebrity? You are a brand ultimately and you are a B2B brand, so in that case, how do you measure the success of your project? So then the metrics for B2B has actually evolved in last few months, in fact, I'll say, especially with the number of podcasts growing. The numbers that I say that or the metrics that I say that people should be looking out for audience, basic one, subscribers your listenership. Okay. It's hygiene purposes, it's good to have. But the other kind of metrics you should be looking at is your category ranking. So say that you're in a management category on Apple Podcast and what is your ranking in your store? Are you ranking number two, number five, number six, so that's where a benchmarking really helps. If you are ranking number five, you're ranking number two, you'll obviously get organic audience. And then without putting in extra efforts, you're getting those additional audience, so category ranking is very important. The other thing that we say to look at is the engagement number again. You might not have thousands and thousands of downloads for your episode, but if your engagement is as high as 75% or as high as even 50% for that matter with a 30 minute episode, then that says a lot about your whatever 500 people are listening to. Would you prefer thousands of people listening to you for one minute, two minutes? Or would you prefer just 500 people listening to you for 50% of the episode, at least. So that is the thing that we are still educating the market on that, okay, let's go beyond the audience numbers because you are ultimately a brand, you're not a celebrity. But you can reach a point in which you are having a lot of downloads, it's going to take time. Initially, if we focus on category ranking and engagement number then that is the way forward to make a successful and sustainable podcast.

Ryan Cramer: Absolutely. So if I'm starting and I listen to this, I'm like," That's all right, that's going to push me over the edge. I want to start a podcast today." What are those bits of information that you say that people, to be successful from the get go, in order to not get discouraged, to not feel like that this is for nought. What are those things that has to be done in order to be successful for this to be a long term play like we had mentioned before.

Prarthana Sibal: Okay. So there are going to be a couple of them. It's the whole list, but let me try to-

Ryan Cramer: That's okay.

Prarthana Sibal: ...get like the top four for you or something.

Ryan Cramer: No, absolutely.

Prarthana Sibal: So the first one is that you need to have a host. You need to not just have a host, but you need to have host commitment. The most successful podcast that we have worked on and they all came with the team, who already knew who the host was and why they were doing it in the first place. So even the host should have some kind of an advantage on why they are being part of this project, otherwise, there's a huge potential that the podcast is going to drop off, if the host thinks that it creates too much work for me and I can't do this anymore. So that will lead to after three or four episodes, you are back to looking for a new host maybe. The second thing is the podcast design should align with your business objective. So this is critical, I have mentioned it before but this is critical to building long term sustainable podcast. All new podcasts start with enthusiasm, but maintaining that enthusiasm long term requires an alignment between the project and the business objective. After that the alignment is done, clearly mention your B2B metrics. So the metrics that we said, okay, let's do measure the audience numbers, which is your subscribers, your listeners, your unique listeners for that matter. But along with that, add into more metrics of category ranking and your engagement number. The last one I would say is no matter what, try to be consistent. It doesn't matter what your commitment is. If you have committed to one podcast, one episode per month, that is completely okay. But stick to that for the next month, next month, next month. If you have committed to four episodes per month that is also okay but inaudible you're able to stick to it. So consistency is literally, we say consistency is equal to quality. If you're able to put out consistent content, that will just wire your listeners in such a way that they will look forward to your content. And we have seen that with the numbers also. If a podcast has been released only maybe once in three months and after that, after six months or something then there's going to be a huge drop off in your listenership then, you have to start all over again. So I think these are just some of the initial points, like top of the points that comes to my mind. But I do have some more points and more how- tos in one of our guides that we have written together as a team, it is called Podcasting for Brands guide. And it's not just from Asia perspective but from a global perspective. So if you want further information, I obviously won't be able to share everything today, but people can actually download it from the URL podcatsingforbrands.com. And that is where they can find more detailed information on the different kind of podcast designs and some case studies also there.

Ryan Cramer: I think this was on the website too, so when I pulled it up it was just the guide. So for those who are listening, we'll make sure we point to it as well in terms of the website and people can find even more about that guide as well. I have another couple questions before we cap off today. How do you balance quantity over quality in a podcast world? Does that make sense? How do you manage the fact of I can put out 170 different episodes, but it doesn't yield actual quality applicable content to what the mission of the podcast is or listening. Is that negative or how do you balance the two in that nature?

Prarthana Sibal: So, Ryan, I'll say that for the initial starting a podcast, don't focus on creating a perfect podcast, try to just get the podcast out. Let's just get over the line, try to get the podcast out. Obviously, it doesn't have to be like you still have some basic quality that you need to maintain in terms of editing, in terms of making sure the speaker has as basic as a headset at least while they're recording. But just to get started, get those first few episodes out so that you are kind of... and especially within an organization, you're kind of planting a flag and then you'll start seeing more people circling around and saying that,"I want to be part of this project." And then you can look at increasing the quality of it. But for the first four to six episodes, I would say just go after a go after just getting those episodes out and starting to get those feedbacks that are needed. At the same time, after that, once you have built that, like if you're going up the category ranking, your listeners will expect a high quality of podcast from you. That's why I'm saying completely to your commitment. There's no set playbook that, okay, if you're doing one episode per month or if you're doing four episodes per month, you'll have a greater audience. There's no set playbook for it until the time there's consistency there. So if there's consistency, you are able to commit to those amount of episodes per month with good quality. How you define quality, again, there's no set playbook for that. But such that your audience is getting exactly what they want to listen to, so by quality that's what I mean. The whole thing about logistics getting a good microphone, you can invest few 100 bucks and you can get it. But here I would say by saying quality, I'm actually referring to whatever your listeners want to listen to, you are able to give that kind of content to them. So if there's an alignment there and you're listening to your audience, then I believe just obviously go for quality over quantity then.

Ryan Cramer: Absolutely. I also think that's important too having a listener's approach or an active listening approach to your audience, if they say," Hey, that segment didn't make sense." Or," Hey, I would like to hear more about this kind of topic in this space." Or," That guest was amazing. This person didn't really provide too much valuable content." You can kind of ebb and flow. And then how do you when people ask me all the time, how do you find so many guests and so many people that connect with you? Is there a success that you've seen in terms of what you envision a guest being. For myself all I can speak to is who do I know in the space or is there a topic that I am passionate about and want to present in the space? And I actually just actively invite them, whether it be on LinkedIn or some form of representation, whether that be an agency or anything like that it's an active approach. And then there's also people that reach out on other people's behalfs and they ask," Hey, this would be a great fit for your podcast." Things like that, they find a consistent nature. What are those tips I should say for engagement for guests and finding those guests?

Prarthana Sibal: So our approach within Pikkal& Co is that we first go towards content and then guests are secondary. So the reason for that is because, ultimately, even if you get a guest out, the listeners you're getting for that is going to be listening to your podcast because of that guest, not because... So let's take an example of if XYZ guest comes on your episode 40 and episode 40 becomes really successful, episode 41 has very less listeners. That is because the listeners for episode 40 was because of your guest, it's not giving us sustainable listenership also. So they're not creating a Netflix experience when your listeners are coming back. So that's why we put huge inaudible towards and huge preference towards content over speakers. That being said, it doesn't mean that speakers are not important, they are obviously the rich source of content and experience. But in terms of content, the content sources are in different formats. So your host is a great source of content, so their personal journey, their connection with the subject, their expertise of 15, 20, 25 years, they're able to bring all that together. And obviously anyone through their networks, who's interested. That is the first set of guests that you can get for your especially proof of concept, if you're doing the first six episodes. The second source of content can be your existing body of work. So let's say if you really used a report around a particular subject matter, and all the authors who are involved within report or other additional thought leaders within the space, they can be a great source of content as well. The others would be I'll say just as you said, sometimes people also reach out to you. So if you have a contact form, they love listening to your podcast and they'll just like to either nominate themselves or suggest themselves for the podcast, or suggest someone else who is apt for the podcast. These kind of contacts you usually get out of your fans, those are the most aligned I'll say the speaker suggestions. And I'll also say the last one would be that over a period of time, you'll get to a point where you are able to reach out to celebrity guests. So let's take as an example, we did a podcast with Tony Fernandes, founder of Air Asia and it was a great experience. It was literally, he's so much into audio and music and all of that. And the moment we asked him that," Hi, Tony, would you like to do a podcast?" He's like," Yes, let's do it." And we flew down to his AirAsia in Kuala Lumpur Malaysia office and we did it then.

Ryan Cramer: Wow.

Prarthana Sibal: So you will reach that point when you are able to get celebrity guest on your podcast, but until the time there are a lot of other content sources for you.

Ryan Cramer: Absolutely. I think those are all great tips. And I know at the time that we had you, there's so much more that you can go into, obviously with branding and marketing and what resources you might need or equipment you might need. Really just why podcasting for brands is important, which is what we wanted to talk about today. But Prarthana what are those ways that we can engage with you or talk to you individually, if there's more that we want to learn or talk about the brand or just listen to you. I'm assuming host of many shows or have been the host of many shows and podcasts, how do we engage in with you and how do we follow you?

Prarthana Sibal: I think the best time to have a chat with me is when you are in the ideation phase, when you're thinking to start a podcast because that's the best time we can discuss on the basics and make sure all that is aligned, before you actually start investing even a dollar on your podcast project. You can either reach out to me on my LinkedIn, so I'm Prarthana Sibal or you can reach out to us through our website, so it's P- I- K- K- A- L pikkal. com. There's a contact from there, you reach chat to me and that contact form directly comes to me and we can schedule some time for our chat.

Ryan Cramer: Amazing. Well thank you so much for again all the time that you spent with us and just the education as well, such a great way to connect, obviously, worldwide too. I think this is something that people not take for granted, but the ability to have this scope worldwide, but not just fans, but also people who can engage with your brand and passing more actively, this is one of those few that has a little bit of everything. You can have the advertising call to action, you can have the content awareness, you can have the business development aspect of it all. It's all super fascinating and I think that's where the future's going to continue to go. More amplified marketing is going to be poured out there with brands across the world and I can't wait to see the next steps. Thank you so much for hopping on today on Crossover Commerce, it's been an absolute pleasure and now friend of the show as I like to call them.

Prarthana Sibal: Great. Thanks Ryan it was a great chat. Thank you so much.

Ryan Cramer: Absolutely. Again, thank you so much again Prarthana of Pikkal. Again, everyone is super interesting, that's why we started this podcast. It's just the content awareness factor of being able to tell a story, but also a point of view, everyone has a point of view and I'm super passionate about understanding this. I struggle myself of not understanding or feeling that there is a point of view that could be had from either me as a host perspective, but as a brand perspective what is that conversation you want to have. Company in itself that presents the podcast can be one thing, but you also want to make sure that you're passionate about and continue to get a excited about talking to every single guest because the listener will hear it or see it, if you don't get excited about it and you're not engaged with either the conversation or just the topic in hand. That's why this is so fun to do on a day to day basis to create content for you the listener, whether it be working on your business or just maybe how do I enhance and develop and grow my marketing strategy, or just to build on those entrepreneurial values that we always talk about on this podcast. That being said, again, thank you Prarthana for just coming on and just sharing her wisdom and insights in that regard. This has been episode 170, so thank you again for everyone who watched and listened to us on our social media or listened on their favorite audio format, whether it might be a download or live streamed on our website at usa. pingpongx. com/ podcast. That's where you can see all 170 episodes as they continue to come out. And again, we'll continue to pump out content as we all always do on the show from my corner of the internet. Tomorrow's no exception, we have another great episode aligned here, you can watch all of our future episodes by subscribing to channels and obviously sharing the content is always warranted. If you find you love the guests, you love the content, let us know. Obviously, you can engage with our brands and comment in the show notes or the social media posts as well. Go ahead and tag our guests and you can connect with them as well. Again, Crossover Commerce, episode 170, thanks for joining me in my corner of the internet. I'm Ryan Cramer and we'll catch you guys next time on another episode. Take care.