How to be a successful Private Label Seller ⎜ Seller Systems ⎜ EP 114

Ryan Cramer: (silence)What's up everyone? Welcome to my corner of the internet. I'm your host, Ryan Cramer, and this is Crossover Commerce. Presented by PingPong Payments, the leading global payments provider helping sellers keep more of their hard earned money. What's up everyone? I'm your host, Ryan Cramer, and welcome to episode 114 of Crossover Commerce. This is my corner of the internet where I bring the best experts in the Amazon and eCommerce space to give their insights, the best tips, tricks, thoughts, stupid quotes, comments, whatever you want to call it in the industry here so that you can learn and level up your business. Hopefully apply this to make you a better entrepreneur. That's my hope at least. But basically sharing this insights with me and this audience is my job and my passion. So what I wanted to do today is bring on our guest to talk about just that. The question actually still posed a lot in the Amazon community and eCommerce community really is can you still make money as a private label seller on Amazon and what kind of impact do masterminds and communities really have on entrepreneurs as they're getting going and as they continue to grow their business, their brand, whatever that might look... So we're going to dive a little bit deeper into those kinds of questions today. But of course, that's why I wanted to name this episode How to be a Successful Private Label Seller. Pretty basic, simple tile, but we're going to get a lot deeper than just that. But as always, Crossover Commerce is presented by PingPong Payments. We transfer more than$ 150 million a day in cross- border payments to over... Now helping over one million customers worldwide, transferring a total of$ 90 billion plus in cross- border payments. Sending or receiving, no matter it's your VAs, your suppliers, your manufacturers, or just selling on international marketplaces, PingPong is going to make sure that you save more and put more margin to your bottom line. So that being said, go ahead and check that out. For your free account today just go ahead and click that link in the comments section below. But only do that when you're done with this episode, of course. You want to stay tuned, take notes. That's what I'm going to be doing today. Got my notebook out and my pen ready as well. But a big welcome to everyone who's watching on Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube, and Twitter. If you have questions, this is an interactive podcast so if you do have something that pops up for myself or our guest, please go ahead and put those questions in the comments section because we can see those, throw them up on the screen, and make sure that we can best help you out. That's what we're trying to do is give back to the community. If you have a specific question, if you're watching this live or later on, go ahead and tag us as well and we'll see those and get to the bottom of your question or comment. With that being said, it's not just about me, it's about our guest. If it was just simply about me as a talking head, that would be one boring podcast and it would not make it past season one. So that's why I brought on my guest today. Brandon Young is an eight figure Amazon seller, award winning consultant with award winning course Amazon private label. He also is one of the few FBA sellers who's also teaching it but also selling and successful at it as well. He's considered by most to be one of the leaders in current Amazon private label strategies. He began selling back in 2015, starting out with arbitrage as most do, but then seeking a more scalable business model. He pivoted to wholesale and private label and in June 2016 he actually launched his first private labeled brand. Now today, he has launched multiple brands selling multiple eight figures and continuing to help others along the way with his course, Seller Systems. Community, I should say, Seller Systems. And he's down there hot, steamy Miami just doing the right things, trying to help other people be successful just like he did as well. But I want to bring on... I'm super happy to actually finally coordinate on the show, Brandon young of Seller Systems. Brandon, thanks for joining us on Crossover Commerce. How are you?

Brandon Young: Good. Good to see you, man. How you doing?

Ryan Cramer: Yeah. No problem. Like you said, it's hot down there in Miami. You're probably working away on the weekends too but a lot of people think that maybe people like yourself are just sitting on a beach somewhere. Well, technically Miami could be a beach, right? Just counting money. But you're putting in the sweat equity, man. You're in your warehouse and you're helping fulfill orders and you're launching products. It's not as glorious as it seems, right?

Brandon Young: Anyone that tells you that you can do this in a four hour workweek and scale the business is full of it. I always hear that four hour workweek book quoted and people thinking that this is the easy life and they can launch some products and start making millions of dollars. It's definitely not true. Now, that being said, I do know a lot of entrepreneurs who still work full- time for their jobs who are putting in the hours from when they get home and after they get done eating from like seven to 2: 00 a. m. every night and they're launching products and creating a million dollar business. So that's possible. But by no means can you scale this to a real eight figure business if you're not going to treat it like a real business.

Ryan Cramer: 100%. Well, that being said, you've been doing this, I say since 2015, and the life of an entrepreneur online, that's like decades if not a whole lifetime. Before 2015, what was life like for you? What were you doing before jumping in online and" becoming" a very successful seller, also entrepreneur, and then educator?

Brandon Young: My background is finance. I worked with Morgan Stanley. Then I left and worked for a family business. We did wholesale construction supplies. My father got ill and passed away unfortunately. So we sold the business at the downturn of the market in 2007, 2008. From there, I decided to go back to school for an MBA and focus on startups, angel investing. I was really interested in entrepreneurship. It was really a passion of mine. Yeah. And then I met my now wife. We decided to start a business together. We figured out what FBA was.

Ryan Cramer: You got married before are after you started a business? That's the question.

Brandon Young: After.

Ryan Cramer: Okay.

Brandon Young: Yeah. We were dating and working together. I went back to my roots so I had a lot of relationships in wholesale construction supplies with tool suppliers and everything. And I contacted those suppliers and I said, " What kind of deals do you have for me?" Because I knew that they always extra budgets, marketing budgets, and they could give deals if you bought a certain quantity. So I figured that's where the juice would be or that's where the profit would be. So I would buy pallettes of tools and then get pallettes of free stuff and then the free stuff was the profit. And then I was selling that on Amazon and doing really well and so really quickly we scaled up. We were doing six figures a month. And we started to take that profit and we saw some SKUs getting blocked. We were also doing some cellphone case stuff like some liquidation stuff. And we noticed Kate Spade got blocked. Some SKUs from Dewalt started to get blocked and more and more SKUs from Dewalt started to get blocked. And that was one of our better tool lines. So we decided okay, private label's probably how we're going to survive the future and create our own brands. And so my now wife being from China, we decided to hop on a plane and go to China.

Ryan Cramer: There you go. And the rest is history, right? You just went there, found your first products. That's super fascinating because you actually had a background in working with suppliers and manufacturers. Was it easy to transition over to either inventing or finding that product niche and then finding the supplier and manufacturing and applying over to your own business? Was a little bit easier you think?

Brandon Young: It actually was probably a detriment. We were used to selling those cellphone cases and we were doing really well with wireless accessories, but they were known brands. And we didn't understand keywords, we didn't understand search volume, we didn't understand ranking and PPC really. We had listened to some podcasts from some guys that weren't really doing it themselves but talked a good game. So we realized pretty early on that we chose a really competitive niche that... Razor thin margins, very competitive. The competition is very aggressive with attacking you. And wireless accessories just isn't a category that you want to be in if you're starting a business on Amazon. So yeah, it probably hurt us going from where we were thinking we were comfortable and then just trying to transition that into private label. And had we done proper analysis, we probably would have gone into other categories right away.

Ryan Cramer: So you were trial by error. You kind of got into the game, you're like, " Maybe we should ebb and flow a little bit more or pivot, if you will." So you're not in, obviously, that anymore. Why get into the category that you got into now? Because I'm not sure how public you share this information. Isn't that also very competitive as well?

Brandon Young: We went into baby, we went into travel, we went into outdoors, we went into sports, we went into toys. Toys now is the majority of what we sell. It's our largest percentage but we have a lot of brands. So we still are spread out pretty well. We diversify. Yeah. So the reason that we're mostly in toys is because my team is really close to one of the main cities called Shantou. It's like the toy capital of the world. You've got 10,000 to 12, 000 toy factories in one city and it's very easy to go there and play with all the toys in showrooms and it's such a fun experience. So you just go around and collect all these toys. Someone follows you around, scans them, gives you all the information. You can test them. And then you basically can find 100 products in a few days that you're there that you potentially will want to launch. So it's really a funny scene. Picture shopping carts and shopping carts of potential products. Jennifer, my wife, playing with them and testing them while I'm on the computer doing keyword research and analysis on them. And data analysis. And she's like, " Well, the quality's okay on this one. How does it look?" And if it meets a certain threshold we put it on one set of shelves that is potential product and we throw the rest in baskets to be sent back if we don't like it. And we do that for four days and probably 10, 12 hour days. And we end up with 50 to 100 products that we'll decide to launch that year and we'll schedule them out.

Ryan Cramer: So that was before. Is that what you will go back to once you're able to get over there again or do you think that has changed the way you launch products in the past year and a half? You haven't been able to touch, feel, kind of get that product in your hands unless you manufacture and get it over to you as a sample?

Brandon Young: Yeah. We're super lucky because we have a huge team over there now. So we have 24 employees full- time on the ground. So we have members of our team who are just in charge of product development. So they are constantly looking for new designs. We'll take existing designs of products that we find and we'll change them and improve upon them. We'll create four, five, six designs of the same type of product to launch at different times and some will work, some won't, and then we'll abandon the ones that don't. And then we just keep doing that. So we're constantly iterating and designing and just expanding upon. But yeah, our office now is... We've got a pretty large office in Guangzhou and it's like a showroom for toys now. It's literally like a toy store in there. The other day I had ... I hadn't seen it in a while because normally my team, when I'm on a conference call with them, is in the conference room. And for some reason I got a glimpse of the rest of the office just the other day and I'm like, " Oh my gosh. You have so many toys there." And I was thinking to myself, " Well, obviously they do but they've got to figure out a way to get rid of those at some point because we don't need to just hold onto all these samples." But yeah, we've got like a 1, 000 toys just laying around the office.

Ryan Cramer: That's amazing. Both as a person who loves just playing with gadgets and gizmos constantly, I'm sure like your kids, you probably get nothing done if that's the case. But then also, that makes me think how often you have to... For every 100 products that you guys are touching and feeling, what's the percentage that you're going to be going with?

Brandon Young: Yeah. It's low. It's under 10. It's probably three to five. What matters for us is a couple things. Obviously the physical side of it. It needs to be a certain quality. Size matters for the weight and dimensions so that you can hit certain fulfillment tiers in FBA. Make sure that we have an advantage there. That's something that we really focus on is if someone's... Someone like Melissa and Doug for example will send a four pack of little plush dolls or cars or something out and they'll send it in retail packaging that's this big. And we'll send it in a packaging that's this big. So we'll save a couple dollars on fulfillment and we can sell it for a couple dollars less but also still be making the same amount of profit or more than them. So those are the types of things that we look for. And then the keyword research is really what we're known for, what I teach my students and the process that we developed there. Which is basically understanding all of the potential keywords on Amazon that drive sales for a product and then understanding how the competition is meeting that demand, whether they're doing a good job or bad job at it. So you'll look at the top 10 sellers of a product, you'll be able to create what we call a master keyword list, which is all those keywords, their search volumes. And we can get how many sales you should expect to sell if you saturate this market, if you do a good job of ranking for most of those keywords. And then we'll see the rank of those main sellers that are already doing well on Amazon and you'll be surprised. The second best seller might only be on 60% of the potential search volume for a product. The fourth best seller might only be on 40%. So that gives us an immediate idea of the risk around doing a potential product and the opportunity of doing a product. How many keywords there are, how much search volume there is, the concentration of those search volumes, how many different ways do people call products, which we call routes. So we really dig into that keyword analysis and that data analysis to really determine whether we should do a product ultimately. But it needs to meet all those other physical criteria first too.

Ryan Cramer: I was going to say, yeah, so you're looking at market share. Of that market share, how much is the number one seller making? And then what's the potential of you kind of getting whatever gap there is, making that up, and then overtaking them with that gap? Is that kind of the philosophy? crosstalk.

Brandon Young: Yeah. We're really good at understanding the keywords and how Amazon's algorithm works for ranking. So we can write the listings in a really optimized way that maximizes ranking potential. Amazon gives you a certain amount of credit based on the match type of the keyword, not just where it is in your listing. So they give you credit for where it is in your listing. Like a keyword in your title will get more ranking credit than one in your bullets for example. But also the match type. One keyword can trigger hundreds of keywords for ranking. Because they have to do that. You're not going to get a lot of events, clicks, add to carts, conversion from every keyword. So Amazon has to kind of understand how to rank on a lot of keywords that you might not be getting anything on. So what they do is they do an attribution based on match type. So let's say I'm trying to sell a diaper caddy. I usually give this example because it's pretty straightforward. So if you have a diaper caddy and I want to sell a gray, felt diaper caddy. Now, if someone searches for gray diaper caddy... And I want to rank for diaper caddy because that's the king keyword. That's the main keyword with a lot of search volume. If they search for gray diaper caddy and I make a sale, I make a click, an add to cart, and a sale, then I'm going to get some traction on diaper caddy as a phrase match. Because it's in the same order. Diaper caddy is in the same order in both keywords. So I get like 50% credit there. If it was out of order, if it was caddy diaper, and for whatever reason someone searched caddy diaper gray, then I would only get like 30% credit because that's a broad match. So understanding how each keyword impacts hundreds of other keywords, you can really start to formulate the most optimal way to build your listing and then launch your product. And that's what we've become really good at is doing that initial keyword research, that data analysis, optimizing the listings for rank. So that when we launch a product we can be ranked in the top 10 for hundreds of keywords within the first week with very little effort. Because we've optimized so well the lever has so much more impact.

Ryan Cramer: Absolutely. And that's the thing with people. I think it's tough for sellers to think when you're starting out, thinking of a search engine with Google versus how Amazon has it set up is completely different. Because people say the best kids toy or the best board game or something like that. Then you'll get a list of just saturated aggregated stuff like that but you don't search like that in Amazon. You search for either brand type, which is, again, different, or you search for almost like a generic like board games for kids or board games for five year olds or things like that. And I was talking with Amy Wees and she said it's super important to know that that is not how your buyer searches for it. So is that where a lot of people, as beginning private label sellers, they don't make that connection right away? They don't think of how their buyer potentially is searching for your product?

Brandon Young: Yeah. They're probably not doing the proper keyword research to get the real data because you can get this data from softwares like Helium 10 for example. So you can pull that data and understand what people are really searching for. Yeah. People are searching for toy for four year old girl a lot, but the reality is you're going to have a very difficult time ranking for that keyword. There are products that are generating a lot of sales that have established themselves with a lot of history on that keyword that have a very good conversion rate, a very good click through rate. All of the things that Amazon uses for ranking. So you're not going to launch a product and take over that type of keyword very quickly. And it's going to be very difficult. And you're going to convert lower on a generic keyword like that because people don't know what they're searching for and everyone searching is searching for something slightly different. So you'll do a lot better ranking for keywords that are much more relevant, which is what we call... We give each keyword a relevancy score. So we try to optimize for relevancy and then for those generic keyword later. And yeah, it works really well that way because you can create that foundation of sales and conversion. You can optimize your listing before you go after those more generic keywords that people are searching for. And I think you're right. I think a lot of people don't do that proper research, don't understand those other keywords or how to find them and they just build their listing with best toy for four year old girl. And you can't even really put best in your title or you're going to get suppressed anyway.

Ryan Cramer: Exactly.

Brandon Young: Yeah.

Ryan Cramer: That's how we're weeding out the competition anyway so good. I hope people do that. So the rest of us can just take over, right? But yeah, it's funny to think about from a... And this is where I've found by doing so many of these shows, I think a lot of people just misstep from the basics of research like you had said. They're not thinking about it from at the end of the funnel. They're thinking about the beginning. Like who has the most potential? You're looking at audience share and things like that. Super important. But at the end of the day, when you get your product in someone's hands, is it going to be quality? Is it going to be something that they either repeat buy? Is it going to last a long time? Is it going to have legs after one or two years? Is it going to have all these different additional qualities and can you grow on top of that? Is it distinguishable and different? And a lot of people don't think about that. They just want to do it quick, effectively, get in front of as many people as possible, build up this quick influx of sales, and then all of a sudden either abandon, sell it off, or just move on to something else. So that's why I think, maybe going back to the question everyone asks, is there opportunity on Amazon as a private label seller, your answer would be, I'm assuming, yes of course.

Brandon Young: Yeah. I think this is still by far... And it gets harder as time goes on but it's still by far the best business opportunity that I've ever seen and I've seen a lot of business opportunities. I used to read pitch decks all the time. I ran an entrepreneurship club down in Miami with over 1, 000 members. We would host three shark tank meetings a month and I would just get dozens and dozens of pitch decks. Amazon private label is still by far the best business opportunity simply because eCommerce is expanding significantly. There are millions of products that sell well on Amazon and the vast, vast, vast majority of sellers, 95%, 98%, 99% of the sellers are not good at Amazon. They're not good at ranking optimization. They're not good at marketing. They're not good at making their listing beautiful that converts well and doing their content properly. There is just so much you can improve upon almost every product in almost every category. There's the exception. There's the very fast moving, saturated, mature markets where people have added value and content is great and there are not a lot of keywords and all the sellers are saturated on those keywords with 5, 000 reviews. But for every one of those, there's 1, 000 more products that are not like that that you can find and manufacture and make a profit on and do a better job than the current sellers.

Ryan Cramer: Yeah. I agree with you. And before I kind of go into my next question, I just want to give a couple quick shout outs to people who wanted to chime in real quick. crosstalk. And then he says, " The real deal. Talks the talk and walks the walk. True thought leader in the Amazon realm." Tiffany Hepburn says hey.

Brandon Young: Hey Tiffany.

Ryan Cramer: Yeah. And then, " Brandon Young is obsessed with diaper caddies. Is it the new garlic press?" I don't know. This is the first time I've heard diaper caddies used as a generic example so this is pretty funny. We actually did have a question Brandon. We've kind of touched on this a little bit but Muhammad asked, " Is toys the only niche you work in and is it your favorite? Otherwise, which one is your favorite actually?"

Brandon Young: It's not my favorite, but I'll keep-

Ryan Cramer: Are you sure? You talk about it crosstalk.

Brandon Young: I love toys. We do really well. It's probably 70% to 80% of our products at this point. We spend a lot of time launching a lot of new products there. I have several toy brands and I'll be taking those more direct to consumer, more wholesale moving forward. That's a big focus for us this year to really grow that brand. But yeah, I think that'll probably be one of the first brands I exit. But I still have travel and outdoor and sports and still love those categories as well.

Ryan Cramer: Absolutely. Well, good stuff. So kind of going back to the private label seller aspect of is there opportunity, you said that there is opportunity and 99% of people don't do it well. Why hasn't there been a corporation that has come in, figured out there's so much great opportunity? You and I both know that there's opportunity. Is that why we're seeing this influx of aggregators, more brands, private equity money coming in and want to build out these portfolios? Is that this new wave of so many people now have their eyes open and saying, " Listen, not a lot of people do this correctly or good. We can take over and just beat out all these other people." Is that what we're seeing right now maybe?

Brandon Young: I think you're seeing that with companies that are very good like Thrasio. Thrasio is by far the best from what I've seen. They've got an engine. They'll buy a best seller product and still improve it by 40 plus percent on average. And it's incredible what they can do. So they just proved that theory that even the people that are decent or think they're good at Amazon aren't very good at it. You could still do better, right? So what I'm seeing is that a lot of these big companies are coming in and buying products, buying brands and trying to roll them up. I think a lot of the play that a lot of these PE firms and aggregators are doing is more of an arbitrage on the multiple. So they're buying a bunch of brands at 3X and 4X and then they're going to roll them all up and sell them at 10X, 20X because they can get that multiple if they have 40, $50 million in EBITDA. So I don't see that they're very good at it though. They're not very good at the Amazon side of it. But they do see that there's an opportunity. And I think that what restricts people from being able to take advantage of this to the full extent of this opportunity of selling on Amazon, of optimizing and growing and scaling is a capability thing. Do you have the capital? Do you have the team? Do you have the knowledge? Do you have the know how? And that requires a lot of additional knowledge that isn't Amazon focused. It's about management skills. It's about training. It's about compensation planning. And it's about finding the right talent to help you grow that next level. Creating those processes and SOPs and writing them out they're duplicatable and scalable. A lot of those processes, a lot of that part of it is very, very difficult for people. It was even difficult for us. We hired a CEO coach that we're spending an absurd amount of money with every single month who's helping us become better managers, become better operators. Because now we're no longer having to do the day to day in the business, we're having to hire the team that does the day to day and we have to manage that team and we have to make sure that they're doing a good job. And we've found even that if we find someone that we're training that's been on the job for two months mentored by a good, what we call salesperson... Someone operating SKUs that is trying to optimize them on a constant basis and just overseeing them. And we'll find that sometimes we'll get someone that just doesn't quite get it and the sales will drop on that SKU. We hand it back to somebody that knows what they're doing on the team, someone more senior, and that recovers. So yeah, a lot of these aggregators are going to be in for a rude awakening when they purchase a lot of these brands and the sales start to dip and they don't know what they're doing and they think they know what they're doing and they find a consultant that says they know what they're doing but the consultant doesn't really do it themselves and doesn't really understand it and can't handle that quantity of SKUs. So I think many of them are going to fail, but many of them will probably leave someone else holding the bag. It's still really early on. A lot of them are going to aggregate all of these brands and then dump them on a much larger PE firm that is even more disconnected from the day to day and doesn't know what they're doing. So of all the business models and the people that are doing it right, Thrasio is the main one. They're the one that I would trust with my brand because I know that the team behind what they're doing. Hundreds of employees already. I mean, I think they're up to almost 700 employees last I heard. So you've got to imagine-

Ryan Cramer: They hired 100 in one month. Yeah.

Brandon Young: Yeah. It's incredible, right? And Casey Gauss is a good friend and one of the most brilliant people I know in the space and they're just recruiting some incredible people to come in and just create these machines. It's an interesting time to be an Amazon seller. I think that if you don't want to do all of that and become an operator and scale your business or you don't have the capability to do it, selling now is probably a great time to sell. You're going to get a higher multiple than you would have ever gotten. This will probably reverse at some point when a lot of these going out of business. A lot of these aggregators and buyers go out of business. So you have a good year to 18 months to prepare your business and sell it and then do it again. Like if you're only good at driving your business to two or$ 3 million because that's what you can handle as a solopreneur, do that, sell it. Do it again and sell it. And that's a fine business model. You can do really well for yourself. You can get some seven figure checks and do well. Our goal is a little different. We're trying to build the team and grow to tens of millions of dollars in profit so that we can have a very large exit.

Ryan Cramer: Absolutely. Well, that's the thing is, I've mentioned this too, it almost seems it could become a farm system. If you become big enough, you can find people who are just really good at finding opportunity, learn how to find good product that people are going to want to buy, do it quicker, and then just take it off someone's hands. And then you put it into your engine, spit it out. And we've talked about this with Jim Mann of Thrasio and Elevate Brands. All the people who are now exiting brands and operating them. First order of business is putting them international marketplaces. That's where I think a lot of people, if you're going to scale it quickly and correctly, they're throwing them into international marketplaces. Then you could see a really quick... There's no competition. There's quicker gains that you can see. And then they're starting to build out those legs and logistics in those international marketplaces. So it's really... If you have the network to do it, it makes sense to take it off someone's hands before it really starts to take off and then cultivate it and plug and play almost, if you will, and then resell it off to someone else and let them deal with it after its growth phase. So that's super fascinating. As a private label seller, what do you hear in people who are just starting out in Amazon? What's the number one thing or maybe couple things that they're coming into the Amazon world because of? Because barrier to entry has gotten higher. It's not just a passive thing, it's a full- time job. What are you hearing as maybe a consultant or an educator or just a mentor if you will? What are you hearing from people why they're getting into the space?

Brandon Young: Well, I think a lot of people are looking for an opportunity that's going to be a little bit more pandemic proof. Work from home freedom has always been the reason, right? Like you can work from anywhere in this business. We don't have to have a warehouse here. We don't have to handle our own goods. As a matter of fact, 90% of our goods we don't handle. They still go through third party logistics companies and warehouses in LA, Chicago, Texas. So we still see that as one of the main reasons. People looking for a better opportunity. And the reality is it's still there. You can start a business and launch it and do well. If you know how to do the proper keyword research and optimization and pick the right product based on data, you can do really well with your first few SKUs while working part- time. And it's that next part, that scaling, that's hard for people. And I love what you were talking about with going international, going to other marketplaces and that's the strong... Every aggregator out there might have their own key advantage. So maybe someone's not the best on Amazon so they're trying to find people that are already good at Amazon because they're really good at Shopify or they're really good at D2C in some other platform or at Walmart. Or maybe they've got retail relationships. Maybe they can go international quicker and have those channels already set up for economies of scale. Because at some point you get to a size where things start to get cheaper for you and start to get more efficient and I think that that's what the aggregators are relying on.

Ryan Cramer: Do you think that there's going to be a swell of people that can do it really well on Shopify and that's what they learn first? Know what sells just with a audience that they're driving traffic to completely on their own but then they throw that same engine onto Amazon and then they just see it completely scale. There's one person I think recently that's been floating around. I think Ezra from... He's like the big Shopify branding person who just started selling on Amazon and scaled it to six figures in the first month or two just because he knows Shopify. Do you think that's what we'll see as well?

Brandon Young: Well, I love Ezra. Ezra's thing is that he came to Amazon just to try to expand because he had a little bit more capability but he's only putting one SKU on Amazon. He still doesn't like a lot of the negatives of Amazon that you see in some of the faster moving spaces. Like he's in skincare and you get a lot of attacks and dirty competitors and it's much more difficult. So I think he's using it more as a way to diversify a little bit to increase the value of his company and to expand his overall reach that Amazon becomes a lead source for him. Because then people will get his insert card and want to order the rest of his products on his website which he's not going to offer on Amazon. So he can create brand loyal followers by leveraging Amazon's massive shopping list and traffic list, which I think is great. I have another friend with does the same thing in skincare, my friend Scott, and most of his business is not on Amazon anymore even though he started there. He's just become really good at Shopify. So I think certain markets lend yourself to that. If you've got a replenishable product, if you've got something in skincare, supplements, or something that people buy over and over again, then I think having your own Shopify store and being really good at it is where you want to be. But people that go from Shopify to Amazon might be surprised. If you're in a nonreplenishable market, Shopify's harder than Amazon. You have to understand marketing funnels and email marketing and retargeting and retargeting funnels and pixeling, which is now even harder because the iPhone is just updated-

Ryan Cramer: Moving away from it. Yeah.

Brandon Young: And made it harder for Facebook to retarget you. So you have all of these challenges where you have to constantly drive your own traffic and build up your brand. Especially if you don't have someone that's going to come back for a second purchase a lot of times. If you don't have a lot of different SKUs, if you don't have something to offer them again, yeah, it's really tough to be profitable on your own site. So Amazon's just so much easier because once you rank for those keywords and you can maintain that rank, those organic sales are just coming in regularly. It's pretty reliable because of the scale of Amazon and it's only getting bigger.

Ryan Cramer: At what point do you think that private label becomes not a place to start on Amazon, it's to start on Shopify? Is there a line in the sand that if Amazon crosses it, whether it's something with IMI limits or just inventory or FBA restrictions or anything like that, is there a point where you'll start to see the ebb and the flow go back to Shopify and saying, hey, it's more worth your time to start a business direct to consumer instead of using a marketplace like that?

Brandon Young: I don't know. That would be really far down the road. It's really tough. They're pushing the line now where some of these inventory limits are just super restrictive. It's probably one of the worst things I've ever seen as far as really restricting growth from our perspective. So if anyone's listening and just doesn't know, Amazon has two different scores that they're giving you. Based on your sell through rate, the value of the product you're selling, and the movement of your SKUs, they're giving you inventory storage limits plus they're giving you a units restriction. Number of units you can have in their warehouses. Which would normally be okay because what they're doing is they're trying to force a lot of people to become more efficient with their inventory. But the problem is it restricts someone like us who launches 10, 20 new products a month because we're not able to get the number of units we really need to do that. And for someone that a lot of our business is in toys, what are we going to do in Q4 when we're supposed to send three to five to seven times more inventory in in October and November to prepare for that massive shopping season? It's going to be impossible to do that with the current restrictions. So I don't know if they're planning on revising that or how they're planning on handling that. But stuff like that is what's forcing us to go and develop those wholesale channels. Stuff like that is forcing us to look at other marketplaces. So we're taking business away from Amazon and we're going to become less exclusive on Amazon simply because of their actions right now.

Ryan Cramer: Do they look at that and say... We've heard this too from retail perspective, if you're working with a supplier, manufacturer, or just someone in retail and they do this... If you walked away and you say, " I'm going to be less exclusive with that," they're going to do everything in their power to earn your business back. I don't see that as Amazon being the case. You don't have a one to one person that's trying to say, " Brandon Young, please don't leave your brands off of our marketplace." They could almost care less. Do you think that will inevitably hurt them in terms of growth and scale at that-

Brandon Young: I really wish they cared more about the sellers. Or at least showed that they do. There's just this massive feeling that you get as a seller that you're just another number. And yeah, I can understand if you cheat like Mpow and Aukey just did and they got kicked off the platform even though they were doing over hundreds of millions of dollars. But even at 15 million this year, with our on target at 15 million this year, we're still nothing to them. And we still don't get any special treatment, we still don't get a special representative. We don't get the ability to say, " Hey, this guy's actually pretty good at Amazon and making us a lot of money. Maybe we should expand his units." We don't get any special treatment. Which I think is a mistake. I think they should be. I think once you get to a certain size, there should be at least some help. I'm probably a top 2, 000, 3,000 seller, 5, 000 seller. I'm probably something that's enough to get some kind of special warranting... Warrant some kind of assistance or a phone call, " Hey, we noticed you're doing okay on our platform and doing a lot of business. Is there anything we can do for you?" No. They don't give a shit. It just seems like they just don't care or they're too big and we're just another number. That's one of the most frustrating things about Amazon. But at the end of the day, I owe so much to Amazon with regards to our growth and our wealth and I don't want to bite the hand that feeds you. You know?

Ryan Cramer: Sure. And that's what a lot of people say. It's a marketplace nonetheless. I can't not be happy with where I am right now. It would be nice if there is still a little bit more hand holding or just empathy from their side to say, " Listen man, it's going to be okay. We're going to take care of you. You do such a good job for us. Let's throw a cookie back to you once in a while." But at the end of the day, it's a marketplace so do you think that that's where the opportunity of innovation and growth with all these other... I've seen plays by Wish or plays by Shopify. They're making all these purchases to say... Or even Walmart really. This is a space where they can find opportunity and really take over and maybe give back and maybe give a little more love to the sellers. Is that where you think that they're going to try to grow?

Brandon Young: Yeah. I think that the only way to compete with Amazon would be to have a fulfillment option that's similar. So that's the advantage of Amazon is the FBA. That allows someone to come in from nothing and start to build a seven figure business without the need to scale and invest in a warehouse and employees and packaging materials and all of the things that you need to create a warehouse and fulfill those products. While still giving the same customer service and efficiencies as Amazon. I'll never be able to do it as cheap as Amazon. I'll never be able to get products to everywhere in the country within a day like they can. And it would cost me a fortune to duplicate that. So there's no point in doing it. So for me to go to Walmart, who can't... They have deliver and they have a pseudo FBA that they're building out. But Wish definitely doesn't. I think that there are huge opportunities for Shopify if they create a marketplace because they've got tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of independent shops that they could formulate into a marketplace that they could drive significant traffic to. But until they offer a fulfillment option and a customer service option, they can't compete with Amazon. TikTok, social media trends. I think TikTok is probably another big player that'll emerge. They did a Shopify integration but it's nothing compared to what they have in China. In China they have... And I think they use Taobao for fulfillment so they have an FBA option and drop shipping option. But TikTok to me is probably another place that is still not being developed as much as it could be by sellers. There's a need for a marketplace that connects these brands who can fulfill that have good products and the influencers on TikTok or influencers anywhere. So that becomes a major marketplace at some point, I imagine. But Amazon's still king.

Ryan Cramer: Yeah. They are still king. I think that you're starting to see buying habits change. Obviously we see influence becoming a big component of... Either it's on Instagram or TikTok. Just even driving sales by accident, which is kind of funny. Scott Needham I know was the first person I saw... He showed me the video of this influencer just playing with his product. It was such a weird, unique product. I think 3D hardening... I couldn't even describe it for you. It would be such a terrible keyword that I would have to come up with. But in that regards, I saw it side by side and he showed the sales component when it launched. It was like 10, 000 units sold in a 24 hour period right before Black Friday. I just couldn't believe the amount of influence in today's society as youth grows up in this movement of you say one thing, hey, check out this product, you see it on social media all the time, buy this. Instantaneously, without people thinking, they're handing over money. So I think that's where the opportunity is. Commerce on social media, whatever that looks like. Direct to consumer, direct to brand, however they merge. That's going to be fantastic and Shopify's doing that really well I think and continue to innovate that. What's something that you like as a private label seller that most people don't?

Brandon Young: Data analysis. I love letting the data make a decision for me so I don't have to guess. We went with our gut in the beginning and it didn't work out for us. We did over a million dollars in revenue in our first year but really at no profit. So it was one of those things where we wish we had understood how to look at keywords and data and search volumes and how to optimize listings and how to choose products better. That's something I really love to do and I still think the majority of sellers don't spend enough time doing that before they choose a product.

Ryan Cramer: Are passion brands dead before they get started? Like if you are passionate about something in your life that's impacted you and then you develop that product, is that something that's going to be hard to scale and be hard to let go eventually, do you think?

Brandon Young: Yeah. I see it on a regular basis. It's not to say... They could end up finding a product that still doesn't have a lot of people meeting the demand properly that they can optimize and do a good job with. But falling in love with an idea is the number one reason that I see entrepreneurs fail in every industry. At some point you've got to pivot. You've got to get enough data and you've got to make a decision based on the data and you can't become emotional to it. A lot of people become really emotional and attached to something that they love or they're attached to and it just isn't a good idea. It's not something that people are going to spend money on. It's not something that's going to drive people to change their current habits. And people just might not be looking for it. So the biggest thing is that you can't create demand on Amazon. So if you understand that rule, that's a law, that you can't create demand on Amazon, then you shouldn't try to develop products that people aren't searching for on Amazon. So don't invent something and think that you're going to launch it on Amazon and do a good job with it if people aren't searching for it. Unless it's something that is just a better iteration of something that already exists that people already search for and you can compete with price and show them in some way you can display that uniqueness or that advantage, then there's an opportunity. But don't try to invent and then bring to Amazon. It doesn't work.

Ryan Cramer: That's the other thing too is making a personal brand or tying yourself to that brand. It's hard to exit any sort of capacity with that way. John in Thrasio, employee 595, is not going to be... He doesn't care as much as you do for your cat clothes or whatever they're buying. I don't even... It might be a thing on Amazon. I'm sure it is. Search that keyword. I don't think Thrasio's buying cat clothes but I could be wrong. But he's not going to care as much as you do with a personal brand so I think that's hard to iterate and replicate once you let go of your business in that regard. So I think people are steering away from more like, you're the face of the company or something tied to a story. Which is what... Like my daughter had a genetic disorder, therefore I created XYZ. That's hard to buy if I'm Thrasio and saying we care just as much as this person and we're going to keep on their legacy or something like that. I don't see many people doing that so I always tell people stay away from personal branding as much as you can. Or if it's a backstory, just keep it as a backstory, don't make you that center point, if that makes sense.

Brandon Young: No, of course. It's a key man issue is what they call it in business. Yeah, if you are the person that drives that branding and drives that business then it makes the business extremely difficult to sell and move on from. It's not an exitable asset most of the time.

Ryan Cramer: Absolutely. And before the top of the hour, I know we started a little bit later, my other question for you is what's a recurring nightmare that most private label sellers have or maybe that you have that's just a constant you have to worry about and keeps you up at night?

Brandon Young: Yeah. The biggest thing is just Amazon shutting you down, constant attacks from sellers. We've become a lot more understanding of their terms of service and we don't really plan to gray the black area at all. We might push the gray occasionally but for the most part we understand where those lines are. So we're not as in fear of us just waking up and our account is shut down. But there are just so many things that just randomly happen from either attacks or from paperwork getting messed up or an IP complaint that wasn't real that'll shut down a listing for... I have one right now that's down for like 60 days with a fake IP complaint from a major toy company.

Ryan Cramer: I saw that. Can you give a little more backstory on that real quickly before we have to hop off?

Brandon Young: Yeah. Sure.

Ryan Cramer: 60 days is a long time for something that's legitimately yours.

Brandon Young: My impression is that the company has a consulting company that they've hired to try to enforce some IP. But this company is probably compensated in how many people they knock down because they are just issuing to a bunch of people that aren't violating any IP. For example, their product has designs on it and ours is blank. They're saying that we're infringing on their copyright of those designs being on our product but our product doesn't even have those designs on our product. Very straightforward. So our process to handle this is that we have our attorney write what's called the DMCA counter notice. And that's basically telling the company that in the professional opinion of our attorney that we are not infringing because of XYZ and therefore they have 10 days to basically sue us or they can kick rocks. Because otherwise they're causing us damages and harm and blah, blah, blah. Amazon will usually act on that. You send them that DMCA counter notice and they will start the clock and after 10 days they'll reinstate your listing. If that company doesn't come back with an answer and say that they are going to pursue some kind of legal or that they have additional evidence or anything like that. We've been through that about a dozen times. It's not cheap every time it happens. We have to pay our attorney$1, 000 to$ 2, 000 depending on the case and how much evidence we need to pull together. And for the most part, we've won every single one because we're not infringing. Now, this one is just a major company, one of the biggest toy brands in the world. So we had an issue where every time we submitted it they would just either not respond, Amazon would not respond, or they would respond after I prodded them and said, " Hey, it's been 10 days. Why is my listing still not down?" They're like, " Oh, you didn't put your address in the DMCA." And then I look at the DMCA and my address is clearly there and I'm like, " I don't understand." So I just highlight the address in the DMCA, I put it in another spot in the DMCA, so now it's not just in the body, it's also in the footer or somewhere else. And then I resubmit it. Don't hear back from them. Prod them in 10 days and say, " Hey, it's been 10 days. Why is my listing still down?" " Oh, you still don't have your address there and your name isn't there." So usually just the name of my attorney's good enough because my company name. So then I put my name and then I submit it. And then this last time, it's just went back and forth. It's like five, six times now that I've submitted this. The last time they said that my signature wasn't on it. My signature's never had to be on this thing. So now I've added my signature, the address in three spots, and now I've resubmitted it again for the sixth time and it looks like it's finally being... I didn't get a response that they've accepted it so I guess I'll have to wait 10 days and then say, " Hey, it's been 10 days. What's going on?" And if they give me another reason, I don't know what's happening. It sounds like this brand has some special privilege because they're so big that the person is kind of kicking it down the road to help them out. Or maybe they're being paid and bribed to do that. I don't know. So it's just really suspicious and really frustrating. But this is a product that was making us a couple hundred dollars a day that's been down for two months now. So now we've got over$ 10,000 in real losses. We've had to recall those products. We had a couple thousand units sitting at Amazon that were sitting there now stranded which is now hurting those inventory limits we were talking about before. So we had to recall those at 50 cents apiece. Some got damaged and are no longer sellable. That we've now repalletized to get ready to send back in when we get the all clear. And all of this on top of if those had been selling we would have gotten more units so now we have a potential loss of we would have had more units to send in so we could launch more products and now the whole snowball and the entire growth and trajectory of my company has been downshifted because of this one SKU because of this one company and this BS that's happening. That's the life of an Amazon seller.

Ryan Cramer: This is my prediction. On June 24th... And why I say June 24th? Two days of epic deals. Prime day, June 21st and 22nd, we're going to start to see, " Oh, Mr. Young, you have been reinstated on Amazon. Congratulations. Your SKU is now back and available to be sold." So with that being said, yeah, that's-

Brandon Young: I hope you're wrong.

Ryan Cramer: I'm going to circle that on my calendar and I'm going to check in with you on Facebook and I'm going to say, " This is oddly available all of a sudden. Interesting how that works, right?"

Brandon Young: Yeah. Well, I'm one of the-

Ryan Cramer: Is it anything we can do that-

Brandon Young: I'm really petty, right? It's a bad combination to be rich and petty because I don't give a shit. I'll light money on fire just to do the right thing. Just out of spite and principal, I will do the right thing. So now I'm going through with a fine toothed comb of this large brand's company, like all of their SKUs, and I am going to find every single SKU that I can duplicate and sell and go after them. And I'm also going to hire former employees of them and go after retail relationships. They have been raising their prices. I will sell at break even to get those relationships from them. Because I am very petty. My wife is yelling at me in the background. I don't know if you can hear her.

Ryan Cramer: Don't say that on live. Yeah, exactly. And that's the thing is... Well, entrepreneurs too. This is not just something that we do... It's not just happening here. It's happening everywhere in business and this is what's happening. You have people fighting. You have people taking sides. You have to do what's right by you as a business owner. Again, I think if this is the right call to action, you certainly have every right to do that. And if there's legality issues, that's certainly a concern for sellers getting into the space. At what point are you not protected anymore? Is this the gray area when people have the bigger person, seller XYZ? And that's concerning, I think, legally down the road that they can get big trouble for. So I wish you best of luck. I can't wait to see what comes out of this. One more thing I want to make sure that we talked about before. You've developed a community. You started selling, figuring out all these things, and you have a great mastermind group, community of sellers. And you're even helping them on their journey. Why is that so important to you to start something like this and then to continue? Why is it as a beginner seller to have a community to lean on?

Brandon Young: I tell you, when we first started we really felt like we were on an island and by ourselves and it was awful. It's a really lonely journey a lot of times to be an entrepreneur. So I was one of the founding members of a group called Million Dollar Sellers. It's a mastermind with hundreds of sellers where you have to be a seven and eight figure seller to be in. And I made so many amazing friends in that group. We would get an Airbnb together at an event and get 10, 12 of us together and then get 20, 30 of us in the same city for dinner and just stay up all night talking business and talking about the strategies and sharing openly. And that abundance mentality... There is 99.9% that you can share with someone about how this business works and how good it works where you have zero risk of them really duplicating what you're doing. You don't need to reveal your brands or your products or your exact SKUs. Like I said before, there's millions of products that can do well on Amazon. So people are like, " Oh, aren't you worried about creating competitors?" And I'm like, " No. It just doesn't work that way." Even with 1, 000 members in our mastermind. And I've never run ads for it up until this point and it's just been the full course. It's called The Seller Systems and Inner Circle. There's very little overlap of SKUs. And it might be like you got 50 people in the same category and the odds of them finding the same products and doing the same products that meet their specifications and what they're trying to do is very low. And they might have 50 SKUs and maybe one overlaps. So that's going to happen, but there's still plenty of room. If you look at the first page of any given search results for almost any product for the best keyword, you're going to find multiple products that are doing$50,000, $100, 000 a month in revenue. So some people just have a preference for one product over another and you could be the second best and this guy could be the fourth best and you guys are still doing really well. So for me, it was more about recreating that community. Because the more you give the more you receive in this world and it's just a law that I live by. It's just the abundance mentality. I've lived it, I see it, I know it. So this community has been my way of doing that. Where yeah, it's nice. I get paid. My course isn't the most expensive. But it's a way for me to also give back and help people start businesses. And now we've grown, we've got hundreds of seven and eight figure sellers. A really high success rate. We base everything on data. And we teach people how to do it right. But it's just a passion for me and I love seeing the success of the other members.

Ryan Cramer: And also you're charging because it's time off your plate from building your business. So that being said, I think people see the value in that and if they want it for free, there's other free opportunities out there. But the community in itself is so... I love this community of how people support each other. If you're doing it the right way. Again, you see jerks out there who are just like, you're doing it the wrong way and you're one of the people I know who have very strong passions about those certain people. And I love that that someone speaks out and say, " Listen, back off. You're a jerk. Move on, do your thing and quit bothering who are trying to do it the right way." That being said, it's really hard to protect everyone but the sense of community and networking in what you see here versus you see in other industries, I don't see that. I've been in other capacities. You just don't see that with other people. So if they want to learn more information, how do they do that? Do they reach out to you? What's the best way to do that?

Brandon Young: I appreciate that. Yeah. You can go to seller- systems. com/ innercircle. I've also got master classes. The way that I do it... Yeah. There's a lot of people out there that will take anyone's money with a credit card and a pulse and I hate that. This business is hard. It takes a certain amount of capital to get started. Don't start this business unless you're fully committed to it and if you have at least$ 5, 000 to$10,000 to put into this business. That being said, if you're still not sure, I have a free class that's an hour long. I have another masterclass that's normally$ 200. Use code twenty and it's only$ 20. And that one's seller- systems. com/ masterclass2. Watch it for$ 20. Spend five hours looking at how we look at data because our database approach. And by the end of that class you'll know whether you want to do this business. Because it's not easy and it's not... It'll either be something that you love or it'll be something that you'll realize, hey, it's not for me. And then you can realize that before you spend thousands of dollars on a course or something else. So I encourage everyone to at least use that qualifier. If you're already in the business, then join us in the inner circle. We do weekly live calls to answer any questions. And you have an amazing community that I hope also practice and do practice that abundance mentality.

Ryan Cramer: Absolutely. And you guys go over more than just keyword research. You go over sourcing, logistics. There's a lot of good things that you have expertise, help people get started out. And that's what this show's about is finding people that can help you along this journey, whether it's growth, international expansion, whatever that is. And you also throw kick ass parties at Prosper. So that was pretty cool that all the promotional stuff that you're going on. Man, everyone's coming out hot out of quarantine. They are throwing kick ass parties. What is going on?

Brandon Young: Can't wait. We've been-

Ryan Cramer: It's like pent up energy.

Brandon Young: We've been cooped up for over a year. We're ready to get back out and hang out. It's going to be great.

Ryan Cramer: People have money to burn and they're going to start throwing it around at events.

Brandon Young: I'm going to see you at Top Golf, right?

Ryan Cramer: I'm hoping. Prosper's the one... It couldn't come on a worse week for me personally because my son's at camp and that's the one camp week that he's not in. So that being said, events in general... I haven't talked to Danny. I don't know if his event's going on because we're supposed to be sponsoring that and he said, " I'll let you know five weeks out." And I think it's three weeks away. So I need to get on Danny over there to see if we're allowed to even go to England right now. So that's another one we're doing.

Brandon Young: That's another one that I... Yeah. I can't wait to head over there. Yeah, last year, obviously with everything getting shut down there was so much travel that we didn't do. I have never been to Europe and my wife and I were going to spend two weeks because we were going to go to Danny's Seller Sessions Live and then we were going to spend the rest of the time traveling around Europe. And yeah, all of that was canceled. Australia was canceled.

Ryan Cramer: Never been to Europe. Okay. Yeah.

Brandon Young: Japan, Australia, Europe. We had a lot of trips planned last year that didn't happen so we're excited to at least get started.

Ryan Cramer: Where in Europe real quick before we cap off? Where are must gos for you as a-

Brandon Young: I don't know man. I think I could spend weeks just in Italy. I love food and the history and the empire and all of the art. I could probably do a few days in Paris. I hear that outside of that... I want to go to Germany. My grandmother was a lieutenant nurse in World War II in the US Army. She was the first unit into Dachau. The concentration camp. And I just get shivers even thinking about it. So she spent her entire life after that educating about the horrific stuff she saw and experienced and it's still very emotional for me that I want to go and visit Dachau.

Ryan Cramer: Absolutely. Well, all those places I can attest to. I have a 10 day trip around Italy that is on hold until whenever we can get over there. So did that as a college student but I'm doing it more as a let's not stay in a hostel or let's not stay with two sets of clothes. Let's do a little bit nicer things. And yeah, traveling is definitely a passion. I think a lot of people realize taking travel for granted during this time but I want to see so many places like you said. I haven't been to Asia so that's another place I would love to experience over in China and go back to all the different places around the United States that you just don't get to go to. Seeing everyone in person will be nice to eventually do so. Check out Seller Systems everyone. I put that link, the/ masterclass2. Check it out. If you have questions, Brandon, is the best way Facebook? What's the best way to touch base with you?

Brandon Young: Facebook's kind of full. Instagram works. It's Brandon. Young_Amazon. That's my Instagram. You can find me there and shoot me a DM. Yeah, I'm usually pretty accessible. I have my public Facebook group too. Seller Systems Succeeding on Amazon. You can join the group and post a message, tag me. I usually will respond to messages in there as well. I try to be as accessible as I can.

Ryan Cramer: Good stuff man. Yeah, absolutely. And those are all in the comments section below so if you're looking at the show notes and don't look at this live, go ahead and click on that. Whether it's Brandon himself or his page, Seller Systems, or the group, we tagged all those. So make sure you check those out and like it for any new upcoming events like Prosper that they're going to be going and doing. So check that out. But thanks so much for hopping on today. It was very informative and good luck with the stupid 60 days plus of trying to get your SKU back up.

Brandon Young: Dude, I super appreciate everything and thank you for having me on, man. It was really fun.

Ryan Cramer: Yeah. No problem. If you hang right there, we'll just cap off real quickly. But thanks Brandon for hopping on from Seller Systems. Thank you everyone for tuning in today. Lots of great feedback and comments. I loved all of them. I'm laughing here in the background as I'm seeing them trickle through. So thanks for tuning in and being interactive. If you like this, go ahead and share that on Facebook, YouTube, or LinkedIn. This is all shareable content so make sure you let us know what your thoughts are. This week is pretty action packed. We have a lot of cool guests coming up. We have Kristina Mertens from Sermondo coming on tomorrow. And then on Wednesday we'll have Ram Menon from SellerApp. We're going to be talking about data driven using BPO reports to open new sales opportunities. So I'm excited to talk with them over at SellerApp. And then of course, in the next coming weeks I go live about three to five times per week with Amazon leaders and eCommerce leaders in the space. It could be anywhere from graphic design to product listings to PPC management to sourcing logistics, international growth. That's what PingPong's all about. We want to make sure that you grow internationally. So that's why I do this show. It's a fun, interactive thing that I like to do. It's my corner of the internet that I like to bring in people that are more than kind enough to share that information and experience with you, the watchers and listeners. So if you like what you hear, go ahead and give us a thumbs up and we'll catch you guys next time on Crossover Commerce. Take care.