Why you should see things from your customers point of view ⎜ Aurion Digital ⎜ EP 112

Ryan Cramer: What's up, everyone? Welcome to my corner of the Internet. I'm your host, Ryan Cramer, and this is Crossover Commerce, presented by PingPong Payments, the leading global payments provider helping sellers keep more of their hard- earned money. What's up, everyone? I'm your host, Ryan Cramer, and welcome to episode 112 of Crossover Commerce. This is my corner of the Internet where I bring you the best experts in the Amazon and e- commerce industry. No matter where in the world they might be living, I'm going to bring you the best and the brightest. We're going to share their insights in the most important aspects of selling online here on this show. Definitely, toilet seat thinking is the topic today. We're going to be talking about why you should see things from the customer's point of view. It definitely catches your attention when you see toilet seat thinking. I, at first, when I was approached about this topic, didn't know what I was going to be getting into. I thought about different things that could be dirty or if I was just thinking while using the toilet. I'm not really sure. But it does catch your attention, so we're going to really dive into that today with our guest that is all the way on the other side of the... I say pond, but all the way in the UK. But before we dive into, Crossover Commerce is always presented by PingPong Payments. PingPong transfers more than$ 150 million a day for e- commerce sellers just like you. Helping one million customers worldwide now, they've processed over$ 90 billion. I say they. We have processed over$ 90 billion in cross- border payments to help e- commerce sellers save time and money. Why not sign up today? Go ahead and check out that link below in the show notes or in that comments section if you're watching us live. Again, if you're watching us live, welcome on Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube, Twitter, wherever you might be watching us, or if you're listening to us on Apple Podcasts, Google, Spotify, wherever you consume your podcasts, that's where you're going to be. Really excited, too, to be bringing on a new partner on our podcast, just got announced here in June, Casted here in Indianapolis. We're going to be utilizing them to really amplify and really amp up our podcasting game. So we're really excited to give them a quick shout- out as well. So stay tuned for more information on that. But everyone who's listening today, if you have questions, this is interactive. Go ahead and submit your questions, or if you want to go ahead and write into the show, go ahead and do so via the email, and that's ryan @ crossovercommerce. com or ryan @ pingpongx. us. That would be the easiest way as well. But about our guest today, it's not just about me. If it were just about me, that would be one boring show. We wouldn't past last season one is the joke I like to make. But about our guest today who's kind enough to join us, his name is Matt Edmundson, and he's the real world e- commerce entrepreneur, coach, and creator. His goal is to show aspiring entrepreneurs sure and simple steps to get a digital business off the ground and seasoned entrepreneurs on how to take their business to the next level. Matt is the CEO of The Jersey Company, a group of health, wellness, and beauty companies that deliver products and services over to 120,000 loyal customers from the UK warehouse, and the group includes the e- commerce business, The Jersey Beauty Company, which went online in 2006 and, since then, has achieved global sales of$ 75 million, and that's over seven million products shipped. Over the years, Matt has built up a team as strong as 50 people. He's also host of The eCommerce Podcast. Go ahead and check that out on Apple Podcasts. Fantastic stuff that he's pumping out once an episode one a week, and he chats with experts in the field, just like myself, in the e- commerce space on how to grow and develop online businesses. So from one podcaster to another, please welcome Matt Edmundson of inaudible Digital and The Jersey Company. Matt, welcome to Crossover Commerce. How are you?

Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Good, thanks, Ryan. Really good. Thanks for that. Love the intro.

Ryan Cramer: Thank you. I appreciate that. As you can probably attest, podcasting, you have to stand out from the crowd somehow. I'd like to thank my team. It's not just me. If it were me, then this show would not get past season one for sure, so it's always relying on the team, as you probably know.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, I like that. That made me smile. That made me smile. And the reason it made me smile was when you mentioned we do The eCommerce Podcast, which we do, when we did season one, it was literally me for the whole season. At the end of that season, I said to the team, " Even I'm getting bored of my own voice."

Ryan Cramer: Exactly. Wouldn't that be-

Matt Edmundson: So I crosstalk agree we you.

Ryan Cramer: Exactly. I was going to say, wouldn't it be nice to have a cohost to banter with or just talk with? Sometimes, it's always nice. But if it was just me talking, I don't think I would get a single viewer, but that's just me. That's me being harsh on myself. But it is what it is. Hey, thank you for joining us. You are in London, I'm going to say. Is that correct? Not London.

Matt Edmundson: Close. No, Liverpool.

Ryan Cramer: Liverpool, yes.

Matt Edmundson: So I live about three hours north of London.

Ryan Cramer: Three hours north of there, yeah. Liverpool, fantastic area. I think we talked about this in my initial talk. So what's new in Liverpool? The country's pretty much opening back up fully. Is that correct?

Matt Edmundson: Well, slowly, yeah.

Ryan Cramer: Slowly.

Matt Edmundson: I mean, the big debate is now whether we... I think it's the end of June is the next big milestone for the UK where the lockdown is concerned. But, yeah, we're slowly coming out of lockdown now. We can have people around our houses again, which is great. The summer has just arrived, it seems. So, yeah, everyone seems to be a bit more hopeful, I would say, in the UK at the moment.

Ryan Cramer: It does feel that way. I would say a lot of people feel like it's an end of a chapter, beginning of a new one, and that's something about summertime, when you can just emerge from your home after being cooped up for so long. You feel that way naturally in the winter, I would think, but when you're locked down for as long as probably you guys have been, more than we have, it just feels more like a refreshing new beginning, if that makes sense.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, it does.

Ryan Cramer: I'm not sure if that feels similar over there. But, yeah, you have a lot going on because you've been selling online, you have the podcast. Maybe take me through that personal journey. How'd you get into e- commerce and digital marketing, getting into a podcast? What's that journey been like for you?

Matt Edmundson: Oh, it's been fantastic. I've loved every minute of it. I guess my career... Is that the right phrase to start? Depends how far I go back, right? But I wrote my first website in about 1998, and I did that because a friend of mine came to me and said, " Listen, Matt, my church wants a website. Who do I go to?" I'm like, " Well, I know these guys over here, but it's going to cost thousands," because this is back when websites were... Because you had to write code, right? There wasn't Wix and Squarespace and all that sort of stuff, I think. So I said to him, I said, " Listen, there's some software you can get." It was called Dreamweaver, if you remember Dreamweaver days.

Ryan Cramer: Right. I do.

Matt Edmundson: I said, " If you buy Dreamweaver, then I'll figure out the software, and I'll create the website for you." So that was literally how it started. A friend of mine just said, " Listen, we need one. Can you create one? Do you know who can help me?" I said, "Sure, I'll do it. I'll figure it out."

Ryan Cramer: The greatest stories start that way, I promise.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just a small opportunity put in front of you and you kind of go, " Well, no, okay. Well, let's have a go and see what happens, right?" So in 2002, three or four years after that, I did my first ever e- commerce website, and I just connected with a friend. He was selling products at the time via mail order, and I said, "Do you mind if I sell those online? I'll buy them for you at trade, and then I'll sell them. Don't know how it's going to go. I have no idea. But I want to have a go and see if I can do these online sites." He said, " Sure." Six months later, I sold that business back to him, funny enough. So we built it, and then he bought it. It was doing really well. That was 2002, and so that was how my journey started in e- commerce.

Ryan Cramer: Wow. And then, obviously, as time develops, you get into new projects and whatnot. What was that moment when you found the Amazon opportunity and you were like, "You know what? I think that this is something that, with my experience, we can take it to a whole nother level?"

Matt Edmundson: It's an interesting question, isn't it, because I think my journey is much more trial and error than that, if I'm honest with you. Back in 2006, a friend of mine from Jersey, which if you're familiar with the geography of the area, Jersey is a small island off the north coast of France, and I like to describe it as independently British Jersey, so beautiful place. It's 45 square miles. It's not a massive place. It's kind of English, but it's not. It's kind of independent. It's got its own parliament and all that sort of stuff. About 100, 000 people live on Jersey. A friend of mine on Jersey had and still has some health clubs over there, and he's like, " I need to do something to create some income," and I was like, " Well, just start an e- commerce business. Sell stuff online. It seems to be the thing everyone's doing at the moment." So we took some products that he was selling in his gym through his... He had a few beauty salons in his gym, and we said, " Well, let's just throw these online." I tell you, Ryan, this is how effective my research was at this point. We went away and did some research, and I was like, " I think by the end of the year we will sell about 10,000 pounds," which is, what, about$ 15,000 worth of product. We launched the end of August, okay, so August 2006. My aim by December 31st, 2006 was to have sold about 10 grand's worth of product. The reality of life was we didn't sell 10,000 pounds worth of product. Jersey Beauty Company sold 400,000 pounds worth of product in those first four months. So it wasn't by my design. It was-

Ryan Cramer: Yeah. You were surprised, shockingly, yeah, by the-

Matt Edmundson: Yeah. We were all really pleasantly surprised, and don't get me wrong, we had to learn quick because they're good problems to have when you're that successful overnight, but we had to scramble quick. We had to figure stuff out very, very quick. But it certainly wasn't by our design, where we went, " You know what? We're going to totally dominate the world of beauty right now." I wish I could sit here and say that's what it was. It was a moment of genius on my part. That would be an utter lie, though, if I'm honest. So, yeah, I'd say our journey is much more trial and error, if that makes sense. We just kind of stumble across things because we do know things, we do understand things a lot better now, but I can't underplay the effect of timing in our whole journey. Do you know what I mean? Right place, right time, right opportunity.

Ryan Cramer: Mm- hmm(affirmative). Well, there is a article that came out with Marketplace Pulse. I'm not sure if you follow them. But they were talking about sellers who have been on and that there's still not any saturation in the Amazon Marketplace. They had this data graph, if you will, of when new sellers enter into the market and how much market share that they had. Around 2014,'15, is when this new era of sellers began, third- party sellers and FBA warehousing becoming brands. That's when it really started to take over, and new sellers were around 60%. But even over time, it's really been evened out in terms of growth potential, both new sellers and seasoned sellers. So I think that's fascinating that there is all this space available when companies like The Jersey Company can come in and say, " Listen, we're still going to assert dominance in our space, but other people can play nicely as well, and we're still going to grow." I think that there's not a lot of places in business that I think that can happen, apart from that right now. Would you agree with that, or do you have a different take on that?

Matt Edmundson: No. I'd certainly say that's my experience, certainly in the beauty industry. I mean, it is hyper competitive. Next to fashion, I think, it's one of the most competitive industries online. I think the reality of it is if you're good, competition helps you grow, if that makes sense, because it increases the market. It increases the market awareness of products. So as my competitors got bigger, we got bigger. In part, that was down to my competitors developing the market awareness of the products we were selling, and vice versa. Do you know what I mean? So I've never been afraid of competition. I've never been discouraged by competition, if that makes sense. I welcome it. I think it's part of the free market economy. It's a good thing to have. It keeps you on your toes. It keeps you sharpened. But I definitely don't think that if you're in a space you have to find a space where there's no competition. Do you know what I mean? The elixir of business. It's like, " I'm the only one operating. I'm the only one that can sell this product." It's like, " No, come on." It just doesn't happen. It doesn't matter where you are or what platform you sell on, Amazon, your own website, Etsy, whatever it is. There are competitors, and there are competitors way, way bigger than you. I often call myself a digital David, based on the story of David and Goliath. Malcolm Gladwell-

Ryan Cramer: Of course.

Matt Edmundson: ... did a book calledDavid and Goliath a few years ago, brilliant book, and he talks about the advantages that David actually had over Goliath. I feel like in e- commerce we often feel like these sort of digital Davids taking on the Goliaths, the Amazons, the Walmarts, the Etsy, all these big people, and we feel overwhelmed by it. But, actually, we've got a lot of stuff in our arsenal that can really help us, do you know what I mean, overcome that and do really well for ourselves and not be afraid of that but actually welcome it and go, " No, no, no, we can do well here. Let's make sure we're on board." Do you know what I mean? I think that's how I see it.

Ryan Cramer: Well, you made a good point, too, how people see competition. In any good course out there or any sort of person who's trying to help people sell online, you'll tell people look for competition but where there's opportunity, whether they're just not optimized or their product is maybe lacking a little bit. There is an opportunity to take over what is already there instead of starting from scratch and maybe developing something that's nothing maybe currently out there. So that's a good point in that regards. Maybe, as you've developed over time, what are some of the things that you've learned about yourself as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, and then maybe some things you didn't like about what you had to learn the hard way, if you will, about that?

Matt Edmundson: That's a really, really good question, I think. There's a number of lessons that I've learned along the way. Number one, everything changes, but everything stays the same. What I mean by that, if you look at digital marketing now and the knowledge and insights you have to have, well, they're very different to say 2006 or 2002. The principles of marketing have stayed the same, so whilst... Do you know what I mean? Digital marketing, everything's changed. The principles of it have still remained identical. I'd say the other thing that I would say has been a big learning for me is actually the more time I invest into my team, the better off I'm going to be. It's the same with parenting. It's the same with managing your team, right? The more time I invest in my kids, the easier parenting is going to become. The more time I invest in my team, the easier running the business is going to become. That's been the lifelong learning here. I can't do it all. I am not God's gift to e- commerce. It's just not true. I am a human being who is fallible, and, therefore, having quality people around me and, actually, people who are better than me... I wrote my websites back in 1998. I don't do that anymore because there are-

Ryan Cramer: A lot's changed since then.

Matt Edmundson: A lot has changed, and people are... We've got a couple of guys who code for us, and the guys that do that, way better people than I am at coding. I can't be insecure about that. I have to release them and empower them and get them better and help them to be better and not be worried that I'm not as good as them at certain things. Do you know what I mean? So the power of team, I think, is crucial if you're going to build any long term business.

Ryan Cramer: Absolutely. Surround yourself with smarter people than yourself to make you look better is how I always see it as well. So diving into our topic of discussion, if you will, if that's okay with you, it was funny, how I was connected with you is you have a podcast agent, if you will. I thought this was fascinating, that when you're presented with topics it's so much easier... I don't know about yourself, but when a podcaster is presented with topics, there's always going to be something that stands out. As a host, I want to listen to something from a guest that I have not heard of or I want to really dive into. When I saw the title toilet seat thinking, I had this curiosity about what does that mean, are you thinking long when you're using the toilet? What could that potentially cover in that regards? So starting from the beginning, Matt, what do you mean by toilet seat thinking? Let's just get that out of the way.

Matt Edmundson: Let's dispel that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ryan Cramer: Before anyone turns off the dial, if you will, or goes to the next episode, we want to know what does toilet seat thinking mean to you?

Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Toilet seat thinking is based around a story that a friend of mine told me. I wish I could say this was my story, but it isn't. I've totally robbed it from a friend. I just want to be totally clear about that. A good friend of mine, a guy called Rich Reising, and Rich was... He's actually from Dallas, Texas. He came over to the UK, and he was speaking at a conference which I put on over here. At the conference, marketing conference, he was telling this story about when he worked... I don't actually know if this is a genuine story, by the way. I just remember this story. He was telling this story about when he worked at a hotel, and at the hotel, he would consistently win the award for the best cleaner, like Best Cleaner of the Week Award or something like that.

Ryan Cramer: Sure.

Matt Edmundson: His job was cleaning toilets in hotels, and everybody was like, " Well, hang on a minute, how come you keep getting the award," and the other cleaners, the competition, were a little bit envious by this, so they tried harder to clean the toilets better. They scrubbed and they scrubbed and they scrubbed. Didn't matter what they did. They never got as many positive comments on their toilets as Rich got on his, so he always won the award. Exasperated, the cleaners went to Rich and said, " What is the secret of your success? Why do you continually win this award? It doesn't matter what we do, you always seem to win the award." He said to them, " Well, show me how you clean the toilet." So off they go to a toilet, and they show him what they do and how they scrub and clean, and Rich just watches them, and he says, " There's one big difference, and I'll tell you what it is." They're like, " What is that?" He said, " When you go in a toilet and clean it, you stand and you look at the toilet." He said, " I sit down on the toilet seat and look at it from the point of view of the customer, the user, the person using it." He said, " I make sure everything is clean from that vantage point and everything looks good and everything's in its right place." He said, " That's all I do. That's the only difference." He cleaned as hard, he just changed his perspective. So toilet seat thinking, this always stuck with me. In fact, I have a... I often use it as a prop, Ryan. We have a toilet seat here that I often use when I'm talking to clients about this just to help them remember. In fact, I did a conference with some clients the other day. Because everything's digital now, I sent them all a toilet seat and said, " Right, you all have to now sit on the toilet seat while we are having a conference about this."

Ryan Cramer: There you go.

Matt Edmundson: So toilet seat thinking is that. It's just actually looking at life from the point of view of your customer. That's the biggest secret, I think, to e- commerce, is just looking at the website, looking at your product, looking at your business, looking at what you do from the point of view of your customer rather than from your point of view. You're like the guy standing looking at the toilet the wrong way. So that's toilet seat thinking.

Ryan Cramer: That's such a powerful message but in a very consumable way. So how are you actually applying that methodology to your own business and then maybe where people just constantly are missing that point of view? Let's start with you first, Matt. How did that change your way of thinking?

Matt Edmundson: One of the big ways it changes how you think is in the... Well, I mean, it changes everything. But one of the big ways, I think, is around the products that you sell, okay? I'll give you an example, and this is from Jersey. This is a Jersey example. There was a time where we would just literally go to any beauty brand or any beauty brand that came to us and said, " Listen, can you sell our products online," we were like, " Sure," and we would just throw them on the website, didn't care about them. It wasn't until I actually sat on the toilet seat and thought, " Actually, what's going on with the customer here?" So I started to do research about the customers. What is it they want? What is it they're using? Actually, Amazon is one of the best places to do that, and so I went onto Amazon, did an awful lot of research, and found a product that customers raved about on Amazon in their reviews, just reading through the reviews and some of the things that they were saying. We approached that company and said, " Can we sell your product on the website?" They were a young, small company. It's like, "Sure, no one else has asked us. Why not go for it?" We sold that product on the website, and in the first year, we sold 100 grand of it.

Ryan Cramer: Holy cow, yeah.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Just from looking at the customer information, if that makes sense, or the customer reviews on Amazon of products. What is it the customer wants? What do they need? What are they saying? How can we help them? We set up a skincare brand doing exactly the same thing. What does the customer want? So we were like, " How do you market a skincare brand in the world's most competitive industry without spending a small fortune and having to mortgage your right kidney to do it?" I was really curious. We just went onto Twitter. This was in 2013, 2014, somewhere around there, so it's slightly different now. But we just went onto Twitter, and as I'm always amazed with social media, I'm always flabbergasted by what people are actually willing to write on social media about their personal lives, right, inaudible.

Ryan Cramer: It's very true.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah. So we just went onto Twitter, and we set an alert. Every time someone mentioned a problem like dry skin, oily skin, breakouts, acne, whatever it was, whatever the alerts were, it just came up on our system, " Somebody has just typed this in on Twitter." So we were just like, " Awesome. Let's get in touch with them. Hey, sorry to hear you've got skin breakouts. Listen, I've got a great product I think will help you, but I don't want you to buy it. Let's sample it, see how you get on, and if it works, we'd love to help you. And you can get free samples just by clicking here and giving me your information. I'll send them out first class today," sort of thing. So that's what we did, and that's how we grew that brand. Again, just toilet seat thinking. What is it the customer wants, and what is it they need? I would say the first area that this has got to impact is in the area of product, by far, and your research about products and what you sell on your website.

Ryan Cramer: Absolutely. I use the same phrase, but I think social listening, in terms of going through and actually getting feedback from potential clients or even potential developing new product. You need to actually know your customers first, what they struggle with, is your product going to fix that, and then you move forward from there. So that's interesting. Does that strategy... Would that hold up, do you think, now today more so than ever, or is there a different approach that you would take even in that regards? Because you're reaching out to these people individually, do you think that there's still trust online for people to do that, or do you think that people are in a world now of more mistrust or, " How did you know that I had skincare problems," or anything like that? Does that make sense?

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, it does. I think the world is slightly more mistrusting. If I was starting a skincare brand today, it wouldn't be the only tactic that I would use. I'll just be super clear about that. But it would be one of them. I still feel there's power in going to people directly, one- on- one directly, and that's not cold- calling, that's not picking... Nobody likes getting a cold call, do they, so you don't sit by the phone going, " Please, double glazing salesman, please call me so I can buy new windows," or whatever it is. You don't do that. So I think social media is fine if it's done gently and if it's done right, and I think it is a good strategy still. I still think you can do that because it is free. It's just time- consuming. You're not paying, and you're getting straight to the heart of the problem. So, yeah, I still think it would be good. I still think it would work. I think you could reach out to people that way.

Ryan Cramer: So how are you and your team nowadays... You mentioned earlier in the show, there's so much development in tech, there's so much development in tools that maybe help your job a little bit easier. Is there something out there where there is a series of tools or people that help you develop your thought process a little bit more easier or find those resources a little bit easier, almost that customer segment? Is there something that you've found along the way that's just making your job a little bit easier?

Matt Edmundson: I mean, yes and no, right? Again, everything's changed but nothing's changed is a common principle. So if you take something like product research, finding products like the serum that we started selling and made 100 grand out of, let's take something like that, for example. That's on Amazon. So I could just trawl Amazon, and if you know some basic hacks, like how to find the bestsellers in a category, which is... Let's just face it, it's not rocket science, is it?

Ryan Cramer: Pretty easy. Exactly.

Matt Edmundson: If you can't do that, you probably shouldn't be in e- commerce. I can go and find those products, and I can look down that list and go, " Would that work for us? Let's look at the reviews. What do customers say about this? Is this consistently in the bestseller list, or is this just a one- off flash in the pan thing?" You can do that manually, but there are tools out there that you can use that would help you do that automatically, tools like Jungle Scout and there's... Oh, what's his name? He was on this show, and it's just totally missed... I've just totally forgotten it. He was in season five. John Tilley was on the show, if you search for-

Ryan Cramer: Oh, Zonguru.

Matt Edmundson: Zonguru, that's it. Well done. So you've got Zonguru as well, which is a brilliant piece of software, and it helps you figure out what's selling well and what's ranking well on Amazon automatically. So everything's changed, but nothing has changed. The principle of just doing that research is still the same. Yes, there are tools that you could use now, like Zonguru, and you should definitely check it out, that would help you do that, irrespective of whether you're selling on Amazon or not. I think, personally, every product you're selling on your website you should be tracking on Amazon anyway, tracking the sales of it, tracking the data of it, tracking the description, tracking the reviews. What images have come on? What changed? Where has it appeared in the ranking? Tracking all that information because Amazon, on one hand, it's a Goliath and it's a pain in the backside because you feel like it's taking half your customers, but, on the other hand, it is a treasure trove of data and information which you would never otherwise find out. So I would be using tools like Zonguru to track products, yes.

Ryan Cramer: Well, shout- out to John Tilley. He's been a friend of the show as well, so we'll have to make sure that he knows we spoke about him. Going back to more about the customer segment, what's your perception of the customer in 2021? Have they become smarter, or have customers just found different ways to either complain about products or just get smarter about how they consume products? Is there a customer mentality that's changed over time since you've been selling online?

Matt Edmundson: That's a great question, and, again, I don't... I think technology has changed. So I can sit there in front of my TV and I can go, " Oh, I need to get dot, dot, dot," and inside of 30 seconds, I could've ordered that, either by Amazon or eBay or a website of my choice. I can just... There it is on my phone whilst I'm watching TV. So I think convenience has become a major, major contributor now to the whole thing, right? How convenient is it to buy a product? But the reality of it is and the truth here, Ryan, in my mind is, again, the principles have stayed exactly the same. 99% of e- commerce businesses fail, and they fail predominantly for one key reason. I mean, you could argue there's more, but let's start with the first one, and it's the first one that I always see whenever comes and says, " Why am I not getting the sales that I need?" I don't start at the website. I don't start at the marketing. I start with the product. Fundamentally, do you have a product that people want to buy, okay? So if you remember your economics lessons all the way back at school, for me, I did economics back in the'90s, where I learnt about the free market and supply and demand. The rules have not changed. It's like if you have a product that people want to buy, well done. If you have a product that people don't want to buy, I don't care how beautiful your website is. I don't care how slick your pay- per- click campaign is. People just aren't going to buy it. It's just the way of the world. So while some of these things have changed with consumers, the ability to buy quickly and easily and conveniently, fundamentally, consumers still have to want what it is you're selling and they still have to understand why it's going to make sense for them to buy what you're selling. I think those principles have been timeless. Has the consumer got a bit more savvy? You could say yes because they are... You know and I know, you sit there and I sit there, and we can watch pricing. Within three seconds, you've got 20 websites selling the same product all giving you various different prices and so on and so forth. So, yeah, I think, other than the ability to do a lot of price comparison, I don't know if it's changed that much, to be fair.

Ryan Cramer: I would agree with you. I think that there's so many more tools out there that give more insight into what the customers always thought of. Their behaviors, no matter what it's going to be, I think, has been enhanced, believe it or not, by social media or tools out there, just because there's this wave of influencers, micro- influencers, whatever you want to call them, that if you are a follower of theirs, there's just been this mentality of whatever they say or whatever I should do, almost I should opt into it. But you see that in different aspects of life as it has evolved over time. You've seen that in billboards. You've seen that in celebrity endorsements. You've seen that in different kinds of advertising in digital campaigns, that these people are promoting these products, whether it's athletes or whomever it is. There's always been an aspect of it. It's just made easier to get from point A to point C, and that B component has just become a lot smarter, I think, in helping people bridge that gap a lot quicker. Maybe what kind of characteristics.. At the end of the day, for your digital business entity, if you've been approached and you're just like, "I've had enough, I want to exit Jersey Company," or whomever, whatever company you want to exit eventually down the road, if you do, what characteristics do you want to be known for after it's all said and done and say, " I did a good job, when people think about Matt Edmundson, they're going to say this is what he's known for?" What do you want that to be?

Matt Edmundson: Oh, wow. That's a great question. I think I want people to say he was a guy who cared about his team and treated people right and well. It sounds a bit old- fashioned, I suppose, but I'm very concerned about integrity. Things like that bother me. I don't need to be perfect. I don't need to be the smartest guy in the box. I don't need to have made the most money. I just need to have treated my team right and had integrity in that whole process. I think if I can do that, here is a man that sleeps soundly at night with no regrets. I think that's a beautiful place to be and that's a fantastic proposition for me. So, yeah, I would say that's the characteristic. Are we doing well team- wise? Are we doing well with our customers? Are we doing well from an integrity point of view? Do we feel like we can sleep well at night? It's funny. Jen, who's one of the owners in Jersey, she's one of the business partners. Jenny, she's lovely, a lovely lady, and she just says to me, "At the end of the day, I just need to be able to sleep soundly. If I can do that, then life is good." I think there's a lot of wisdom in that.

Ryan Cramer: Absolutely. Do you think there's anyone out there or... You don't have to name it specifically. There's been a lot of people in this space that I think really actually hurt the industry in general. Is there somebody or a group or anything like that out there that it disgusts you or it just puts a bad taste in your mouth that says, " Why are they doing it this way, what's their tactic," or they're really hurting just the third- party space or online entrepreneur space in general?

Matt Edmundson: I think, if I'm honest with you, Ryan, it's easy to be judgmental, isn't it, and it's easy to look at somebody and go, " I think this is awful." That's how I think entrepreneurs are born. They look at something and go, " This is wrong. I can do this better, or I can do this right, or I can do this differently." For me, one of the hardest things that we've had is working in an industry, the beauty industry, which I think is morally bankrupt, if I'm honest with you. I'm not trying to get on my high horse here. I do think it's changed a little bit. I have two sons and one daughter, three beautiful kids. My eldest is 19, and my daughter is 14, and my other son is 17.

Ryan Cramer: Congrats.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah. We've not killed them, or they've not killed me. Either way, we've done all right.

Ryan Cramer: I was going to say, they're old enough that they know what they're... They're adults, technically, or some of them are, I should say, so I would look out. I have a six- year- old who likes to talk like he's 18, so I can only imagine when they get to that age what they're talking like.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's very, very funny. But my kids are amazing, kids are awesome. But here's the thing. When you're working in the beauty industry, suddenly, with my kids and my wife, I became hyper, hyper aware of what the industry was doing to try and promote itself, all the Photoshopped images, all the stuff which says, " Basically, you're not good enough as a human being without my product." I found it really, really tricky. I remember we took over a beauty business here in the UK, and it had four or five treatment rooms in the business, I think. One of the first things that we did was we... There was a guy there doing Botox. I think he was a dentist or a doctor. I don't know. There was a doctor guy doing Botox in the business that I bought. The first thing I did was I said to him, " I'm sorry, you're no longer working here," not necessarily because I have an issue with Botox, although if you ask me deeply, I probably do. It was more the fact that I just thought he was a really slimy guy taking advantage of young women, and I'm just like, " I don't want that. I don't want any part of that." I said to the therapist in the salon, I said to them, " Listen, I want you to get every photograph from every magazine off the walls, all the posters that has been Photoshopped, I want them all down and I want you to bring them all to me." We took everything down, and we went and bought a book from Time Magazine. I think it was National Geographic, actually. They put together this book, and they were portraits of people from all over the world, unedited portraits. It was a beautiful book. So we just started putting photographs of real people, Western people, African people, Eastern, Asian, we had different skin colors. One photo had, I can't remember the name of the tribe, but a tribe in Africa that has the really long necks with the gold rings around them and stuff.

Ryan Cramer: Right. Yep. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Matt Edmundson: We took everything else down, and we put just real photos of real people up, and do you know what? The feedback from the customers was unbelievable because they were like, " Just something feels really nice about this salon now. It just feels less oppressive." They couldn't say what it was. All we'd done was taken down all this imagery which basically was unreal imagery and made you feel like you weren't good enough as a human being. So, sorry, that's my soapbox. I'll get off it now.

Ryan Cramer: Well, I think that's something very fascinating because, as entrepreneurs, you eventually get into either the politics or the perception of what the industry stands for. I never thought about this from the beauty side of things when you get into that category. No matter what you're marketing or even just getting as granular as your listings or your photography that you're going to be using, it's all going to have a perception of your brand. And a quote from a friend of the show, Emma Shermer from Marketing By Emma, she's a fantastic copywriter, and she says no matter how you... And this goes to your point of the images on the wall. No matter if you're saying it or not, you're always representing a brand, whether that be words or images or if you don't say it. So the imagery that you changed out provided more of a real, authentic feel. That was a reflection upon you as a brand, a brand owner, and what you wanted to stand for, and that says volumes. It doesn't have to be just, " We don't take fake people, or we don't sell to fake people, or we don't represent fake people." You wanted to represent that in a different way. So I think that's super fascinating. Is that something that you're trying to portray, too, in your online sales as well or the products that you are creating to speak to those kind of people? Because there are people who actually like that kind of stuff, they want to feel almost not like themselves, if that makes sense.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, there are. Yeah, I do. In some respects, I could sit here and say to you we've lost out on millions of pounds worth of sales because of products we've refused to sell. You know what? I'm okay with that. It's that whole can I sleep at night thing. With my sons and with my daughter, I didn't want them to grow up in a world whereby they would look at on average whatever it is, two, 3000 images a day, most of which told them that they weren't good enough, and when you got down to it, you had to have a certain amount of muscles if you were a lad or if you were a girl, you had to have a certain waist size or a certain chest size or, do you know what I mean, dress a certain way, be a certain way, have a certain brand, and all that sort of thing. Marketers spend a lot of money to tell you that you are incomplete without a certain product or brand, and the beauty industry is better at it than most, hence the reason it's such a big industry. So, yeah, we could've gained more sales. But I think we would've lost part of our soul and our authenticity by doing that. I like working with brands that are true to their calling, for want of a better expression, that are true to themselves. I don't necessarily have to agree with it. And this is an interesting thing because when we do coaching, I don't have to agree with their stance. So, for example, I wouldn't say that I'm a vegan. It's not that I'm pro- vegan or anti- vegan in any kind of way. I just happen to like a chicken sandwich. It's just the way it is, right? But I love the whole drive towards plant- based living and lifestyle. I love the whole vegan aspect, the vegetarian aspect. That whole drive, currently, that whole message is so on- point. I don't feel like I need to be 100% plant- based to get behind that message and to help businesses in that space. I just have to feel like I can support it and shout about it and go, " You guys are great. Come on. How can I support you?" I think if I can do that, then life's good. I think it becomes tricky when I become like some of the major... There's one brand. I won't mention their name. There's one brand that owns a beauty range which is all about... What do they call it? Authentic beauty, authentically or something... It's their whole campaign. If I mentioned the brand, you'd know who it was. But they show crosstalk-

Ryan Cramer: Right. It sounds familiar, and it's triggering some stuff in my head.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah. They show you photographs of ladies, all various different colors, all various different shapes, all various different sizes, and it's all like natural beauty is their thing, do you know what I mean? " We're pro- natural beauty," and so on and so forth. Yet, right out of the box, if you look down their brands listing, they own another brand which is overtly sexist. So the two contradict each other, do you see what I mean, and I don't feel like I can do that in any way. I don't want any part in that.

Ryan Cramer: So what would you say to people who want to break into the beauty or healthcare industry online or just getting into it as an entrepreneur? What's your advice from day one? What would you imply upon them?

Matt Edmundson: I'd just be prepared for the competition. It is competitive. I think in any industry you can do a lot of good, and so I would implore you to do good rather than harm, just as a father of two sons and a daughter. That's my personal plea. But bringing it back to what we talked about at the start, grab yourself one of these, grab yourself a toilet seat, and just sit on it. Literally, just put it on your chair and sit on it and force yourself to think from your customer's point of view. What do they want? What do they actually want? Going back to your earlier question about customers, more now than ever, especially in the west, customers are driven by desire rather than by need. You can feed into that. As a marketer, as a business person, you can shape that. You can decide what that message is going to be. I think if you're going into the beauty industry, if you're doing something that's good and is not about making people feel ashamed, then I'm for you. But if you're going into it and you're doing the typical thing where you do make people feel ashamed, I'm not going to tell you not to do it because that's your choice. But I'm just going to say just think why you're doing it that way.

Ryan Cramer: Do you feel like a brand has more power than just the products that you're selling?

Matt Edmundson: Oh, crosstalk-

Ryan Cramer: Do you feel like it has more of the power behind it so people are buying more into the brand? It doesn't matter almost what product they're selling. They're just going to naturally be geared towards supporting or, like you had mentioned before, getting behind the message, if you will, and naturally it becomes a... Going back to your earlier point of the vegan lifestyle, maybe I do support that customer or that business down the road because you like the message that they're implying instead of just the products themselves. Is that how people need to look at business more than ever?

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, I think so. Because of the Internet, because of the way data is, consumers now are wanting to know more and more information. So if I think about one of the companies that we run, which is a supplement company, which is a vegan supplement company, actually, if I think about that business and the questions we get asked on customer service, well, goodness me, the degree of information that people want is extraordinary, and I think it's brilliant, and I think it's fantastic because the demand for the information, the transparency and the traceability, I think, are becoming key factors. So as consumers become more and more aware of this, it's not going to be true for everybody at all. Not everybody is going to care about carbon footprint. Not everybody is going to care about the fact that this is fast fashion. Not everybody's going to care or want to ask the questions about this particular shirt, where was it made, how was it made, who made it, can I trace those ingredients? We don't always think about those kind of things, and that's fine. Do you know what I mean? But I think, if I'm honest with you, and I hope I'm not going to get shot for saying this, Amazon serves those customers really, really well. Where you differentiate yourself from Amazon, where you... If I think about David and his five pebbles, what helps is we can do transparency, we can do traceability, we can do authenticity. We can have our values, and we can not preach about them, not shove them down somebody's throat, but we can stand up and go, " You know what? As a company, we sell these supplements, and, yes, they're a little bit more expensive, but let me tell you why they're a bit more expensive. The bottles that they come in are biodegradable, so we're hopefully not destroying the planet. They don't come from China, so we're reducing that carbon footprint. They don't have this packaging." Do you know what I mean? So there's a sustainability factor. We can tell you how they're made and how it doesn't kill 25, 000 fish to have an Omega- 3 capsule. We can tell those stories, and if that resonates with you, if that fits with you, we would look to serve you. You know what? I think if you're an independent entrepreneur and you're starting out in the beauty industry or any kind of business, for me, that is such a good way to go because that tribe is easy to find. I'm not competing with Amazon. Does that make sense?

Ryan Cramer: Yep. I think a lot of people struggle with the capability of trying to please everyone, and this kind of goes back to the industry itself, trying to please everyone instead of saying, " This is my stake in the ground. I'm going to find you if you agree with us and really resonate with our brands. Come find us, and we're going to find you." Instead of, " Oh, we want to make sure that we're pleasing customer X, Y, Z or trying to accommodate for other people like that," if you're authentically yourself, I think that really speaks high about brands, and I think a lot of people are going to really stay behind that, more loyal in that regards, more so than ever, I would think.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, I totally agree. It's why at Jersey our repeat customer rate is higher than normal.

Ryan Cramer: That's amazing.

Matt Edmundson: Because you win customers and they're not just buying product, and that's the fundamental thing, right? This is where I think online you can do really well, is if you grasp the idea that consumers aren't just buying the product, they're buying the story in that product, the story behind it. They want to not only have the product, they want to feel good about having that product. I think it's okay to have a mission statement which says, " We just want to change the world or at least our little corner of it," to create your little corner of the Internet, highlight-

Ryan Cramer: Exactly.

Matt Edmundson: But it's like, " I want to change this corner of it. This bit where I'm operating in, I'm going to be a force for good." I think people love that and people resonate with that and people connect with that. That's the aspect of digital marketing, you can't bottle that, you can't sell that. I can't do a course on that, do you know what I mean? I can't buy that from Facebook. That's just you as the owner authentically coming out and just going, " I just want to change the world. Will you join me? Please, would you come along on this journey?" I think it's super inspiring. If there's anything that people want right now, it's inspiration, especially after the year that we've just had, right?

Ryan Cramer: Could agree-

Matt Edmundson: I want to be inspired. Please inspire me. So, yeah, be an inspirational brand would be my top tip.

Ryan Cramer: Absolutely. There's a lot of things out there or I think a lot of people want to cheer for something and they want to get behind something. However they're motivated, they want to look for something that's bright in the darkness that kind of blanketed the earth in the last 16 months. That being said, you have another side business, if you will. I won't say business. Hustle, if you will. You got so much going on with Jersey and your other brands and whatnot, your other businesses, but you still make time to do a podcast. I'm curious to hear for everyone out there who's also a podcaster or likes podcasts, why do it? I mean, it's a great show. The eCommerce Podcast is very straightforward. What was the motivation behind starting that and continuing to, week after week, hop in that chair and find people to talk to?

Matt Edmundson: Yeah. I think that's a really great question, and to be honest with you, the first podcast I ever did was a podcast for Jersey Beauty Company. This is how I stumbled into it, if you like. A friend of mine once told me I've got a great face for radio, so maybe that's why we went into podcasting.

Ryan Cramer: Hey, someone said that to me, too.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bless them. Bless them. So we started the Jersey podcast, and that was basically me and a young lady called Rach and a young lady called Jan, two very beautiful people, love the bones off them, and we just decided to put three microphones in front of ourselves and just start chatting, and it turned out to be hysterical. I fell in love with it as a medium because I think podcasting is actually really straightforward to do. So if I fast- forward a few years and we're thinking about e- commerce and the coaching and the agency and it's like, " How could we become a more well- known brand, how could we establish ourselves a little bit more," you go through all the things. Do we build our Instagram account? Do we build a blog? Do we do this? Do we do that? Blah, blah, blah. I'm like, "No, we're going to do a podcast because I like podcasting." Honestly, that was the only reason we started. I wish I could tell you again it was just more thought- through than that. It wasn't. I'm like, " Let's just do a podcast, see how that goes."

Ryan Cramer: Exactly.

Matt Edmundson: So that's what we did, and we did season one. Like I said, it was mainly me, and I'd had enough of my own voice by that point, and so we started getting guests on the show. Then I realized, actually, as I'm sure you have, Ryan, that podcasting is an unbelievable way to build a network-

Ryan Cramer: Agree.

Matt Edmundson: ...of amazing people. I was saying this to a friend of mine. He was looking to build his business, which served business leaders in Liverpool, in the city where I'm currently living. He's like, " How do I do that?" I'm like, " You've got two choices, right?" In one sense, you could cold- call all the business leaders and say, " Hey, do you fancy getting together for a coffee," and how many are going to say yes? None of them, really, right? Cold- calling is not that helpful. I mean, somebody who's an expert in cold- calling is going to call me out on this, but from my point of view, it's not the first choice. I said, "Well, the other option is you could go start a podcast. Call it The Business Cityscape Podcast or something a bit cool and catchy, and contact those business leaders and say, 'Listen, I've got a podcast where we feature local businesses. Would love to have you on my show, and would love to hear your story.'" Do you know how many of them would say yes to that? It's in the 90s. When we've measured, it's in the 90s when we're inviting people to be on this show. Not many people come on the show and say, " How many listeners have you got? How many downloads do you get?"

Ryan Cramer: Yeah, thank God they don't ask that about the show.

Matt Edmundson: People don't. You've found that out, right? People rarely ask that question.

Ryan Cramer: Yep, found that out quickly.

Matt Edmundson: That surprised me massively. So here we are finding that 90% of people are saying yes without having the need for all this data and information, and you get to have an hour's conversation that is the most extraordinary conversation. And here's the real kicker. Here's the real kicker. Today, you put on Facebook, " Oh, I'm talking to Matt," so what did I do? I re- posted that. So I've told all my tribe about your show because I'm on it, right? Not only are you connecting with these business leaders in Liverpool and having the most dynamic time where they're sharing their story and they're grateful to you for talking to you, so much so they're going to share you out to their own tribe and connections, right? Let me tell you which one's most successful. I think there's something about podcasting which is the most underrated sales tool I've ever come across. It's an amazing, amazing privilege to do it.

Ryan Cramer: Yeah. That's the thing about partnerships and how this position and this show kind of became what it is today and how the consistency is. I didn't think that there was a voice to be heard, but there's a lot of messages out there that say, " Listen, it just takes one point of view, and then it snowballs from there." People are going to find you. If they agree with it or they don't, they're going to find the messaging, and they're going to, like you said, bring in their audience. It's only going to get better from there. There's no right way to do it. There's no effective way to do it. It's just having a conversation with people who have high- level thoughts about a specific topic, industry, or content, and it really can be consumed in various different capacities, like you said. If you're watching this live, again, thank you so much for tuning in, and then also, if you're listening to this, they can just start and stop it whenever their life applies. This is not an intrusive way to marketing. It's not a billboard, where if you pass by it, you're never going to see the message. It can be opted into a lot. It can live out there amongst the ether in the Internet and people can find it when they are opting into these kinds of topics and categories. I've had more people reach out to me that I've never thought would actually reach out to me individually saying, " Listen, I just passively hear an episode or two," or whatever that might be. I've done as many as six episodes in one week, and it's bananas and crazy, but if they catch one every so often, I think that's a win in my book. If it's a valuable piece of content that they're going to apply to the business and it grows that effectively, I've done my job, and if it brings business to our company, I've also done my job. So either way it is, it's content that needs to be consumed or can be consumed in a very palatable way and not intrusive to anyone's life, I think. So that's very fascinating. You've been doing it how many episodes now, 66, 76?

Matt Edmundson: No, because we changed how we did the numbering, so I think-

Ryan Cramer: Ah, gotcha.

Matt Edmundson: ... we're at70 or something. But we're on season six, and tomorrow we're just going to do season six, episode six. So it looks like episode 66, but there are technically more. I'm being pedantic. We've done a fair few now.

Ryan Cramer: Oh, it's all good.

Matt Edmundson: We've done a fair few. I definitely don't do six a week. I don't know how you manage that, Ryan, inaudible.

Ryan Cramer: That was once and never again. That was a lot. Now, I do two to three, and that feels more manageable, absolutely. But season six, hey, you're like Friends. If you keep getting brought back every year, you get more and more money as people simulcast you, right? That's how it works?

Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan Cramer: That's what I told my boss. I was like, " Once they hit episode 100, I get simulcasted and then that's where the money's at, right?" It is what it is. Do you have any insights or tips for people if you think that they should... Because I hear all the time now, people are asking me for advice for podcasting. I've only been doing this since September. You've been doing this a little bit longer, I would guess. What's your advice to people, whether it's gear or just tips to start or to motivate yourself to do it? Do you have any advice for people starting out?

Matt Edmundson: Yeah. I can tell you the lessons that I've learned from podcasting. Number one, gear is helpful, but it doesn't mean you have to wait until you've got it. This was one of the things that I did. I'm like, "Oh, I just need this bit of equipment, this bit of equipment," and then I would start. It became an excuse to avoid starting. The reality of it is you could do a podcast off your mobile phone. The quality is good enough where that can record you, even if you just get a tie mic, a lapel mic or whatever they call them, for 20 bucks. As long as the audio's good, that's the main thing. Over the years, we've invested in equipment, and so, like you, we now livestream the recording of the podcast. So we've thrown video into the mix. But you don't need to make it that complex at all. You can start off really simple. My belief is whatever industry I am in, either me or somebody that represents my brand well needs to be doing either a podcast or a YouTube channel, okay? I think, for me, they're fundamental requirements. You either podcast or you YouTube or you do both, right? So, for Jersey Beauty Company, I don't do the YouTube channel for obvious reasons. I hope they're clear. I am not a demographic of-

Ryan Cramer: You're not the face of Jersey Beauty Company, got it.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It doesn't need to be me. But I think, if you're going to do something, you mentioned it earlier on, do something with somebody, someone you can banter with, someone you can have a laugh with, because the most boring podcasts, for me, are the solo podcasts, where someone is just telling you stuff. It's like being back at school. I'm not saying that it can't be done. I'm just saying I think that's the hardest podcast to do. The easiest podcast to do is where you get a guest on the show and your whole purpose is to ask them questions, and that's it. Do you know what I mean? You don't have to prep anything other than the questions and doing a bit of research into the guest. So I like doing that. I like doing the livestreams and the podcast where I'll have a co- presenter. So if I'm not having guests, for example, and we're just talking about stuff, I like to do it where we've got a co- presenter because I like humor, I like fun, I like banter. I like a little bit of sarcasm because, you know, I'm English and we do that kind of thing very well. For me, that becomes necessary. So you have to figure out what's going to resonate with my audience? What's going to keep them coming back? What's going to become an interesting... Don't get overwhelmed by what you think is an incredible amount of content you have to create. That is only true if you're doing the solo podcast. I think if you're doing a chat show style podcast or an interview style podcast, you'll be surprised. I could have guests on every week talking about Facebook advertising, and every week would be interesting because every guest is going to bring something different. I don't have to worry about that. I just have to ask the questions. That's a beautiful thing.

Ryan Cramer: Absolutely.

Matt Edmundson: I mean, that's the easiest way to do it. You'd tell me if I was doing the same thing, right?

Ryan Cramer: No, you're right. You're right. I also think that I get a front row seat to some of the brightest minds in this space, and it allows me to broaden my thoughts around specific topics that I actually didn't think about before. It's just almost like a master class right in front of me. I'm just asking the questions, almost like a one- on- one tutoring or even... I can chime in, obviously, in lots of different places, and that's the beauty about this, is my background is so diverse and unique. But when I want to learn about something, it's allowed me to tap into this Rolodex of people. It's like, " Hey, I really enjoyed your content. Would you mind being a guest on my podcast?" You mentioned, nine or 10 out of 10, they're always going to say yes because they want to get their message out, too. But I also want to learn more from those people. So it's that yearning to learn. I'm not going to be the next Joe Rogan by any means, I don't think, or some person who's making millions of dollars on just podcasting, but I think we do this because this is the easiest way for me to learn from people but also to interact and to build a network of unique individuals who... There's so many ups and downs, and it's just nice to know that people have more insight and value to give. Now, I'm the one telling people, " You should come on. You have so much to tell people." Prop them up when I was that person who was just being talked to and was like, " Oh, no, I'm okay with that." But it is super nice to think that people can jump and support you and they see the value of building content and just educating people and not, like I said, be intrusive. But just having other people just have a natural conversation like coffee every single day or almost every day, it's super nice, I think.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, it is. It is. It's a wonderful thing. It's a wonderful thing, and I would say to you, like I say, every industry, I don't care what you do, what your e- commerce website is, you need to be doing a podcast or a YouTube channel, and you need to find a way that makes it interesting but in a way that is manageable and easy for you to do. I don't know if you've found the same thing, Ryan, with your podcast. With mine, for the first two seasons, we had to go and get guests. We had to research who we wanted to come on our show. From season three onwards, I've never had to go and get a guest. Everyone's like, " Can I come on your show," and we get to cherry- pick, in some respects, who the good guests are going to be. The numbers, I think, scare people. It's like, " I've only got 10 people subscribed." Brilliant, right? Because 10 people can-

Ryan Cramer: That's a good audience, yeah.

Matt Edmundson: ... become 100. Yeah, it's agood audience. 10 people become 100. Once you've got 100 people in your audience, you need to open a bottle of champagne, you need to dance a jig because that's... What that book? The Thousand True Fans or something like that. 100 is a tenth of the way there. So if your total aim is to go and get those sales and true fans... And don't worry about, "Have I got 45 million downloads," or whatever the number is that you've got in your head. Just go and do what you do for 10 people. Do what you do for 100 people, and be okay with that. Then do it consistently. That would be the other tip. You would've found this, right? There's days where you show up, there's no one on the livestream, you're like, " I wonder if anyone's ever listening to this?" You're just like, " Why am I doing this? What is going on? It's all a waste of time." Is it? What's the ROI on all that crosstalk-

Ryan Cramer: Which is always why I'm telling people... I was like, " Are you actually watching? Because I know when people are watching on the live stream, so are you bullshitting me or are you just telling me what I want to hear?" But I honestly think that's the case, is that it has legs. This is my high horse. Live is such a unique fascination for myself because you have to intrusively get into someone's schedule. They have to opt into you in their schedule. You're not inviting them into your day. I'm not going out and saying, " Come to my party." They are actually opting into stopping their day to come over to you and say, " I think what you have is valuable. Let me take a listen for a couple minutes or a half an hour," however long a show might be. I think that's super interesting. But then when people do have time and they want to go back to you, that's even more fascinating to me, that they want to opt into that regards, too. So both sets have their own very unique audience, I want to say, if they want to stick with me for the whole hour- plus or if they're going to watch it later when they have some downtime, they're cooking dinner, or whatever that might be, and they flip it back on. So that's kind of the cool fascination with starting your own podcast, growing it to over 100- plus episodes, like you said, and being consistent. People can rely on you for that, they're always going to say, " Hey, I know that I'm going to get great content from them no matter what it might be."

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, totally. Totally. And the other cool thing about it, of course, is you can take the podcast, you can get it transcribed, you can take the transcription, which is not a lot of money to get done these days. We use Otter. It's pretty good. It's pretty reliable. You've got to do a bit of editing. But then you've got three or four blog posts that you can then put on your website. You've got at least 20 social media posts in that, do you know what I mean? So from one podcast or one YouTube video, we can create multiple pieces of content, which makes your whole content production much, much more valuable, let me tell you, and much easier as well, right?

Ryan Cramer: Absolutely.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, I'm a big fan of it, a huge, huge fan.

Ryan Cramer: Well, and then what I mentioned earlier in this episode, I'm going to give them a shout- out once again. We actually are very much... We're partnering with another company called Casted here in Indianapolis, and it's a B2B podcasting company, so it allows us to build out landing pages, transcriptions, social posts, all based upon the audio content, so you can highlight it, pop it into a Facebook or a LinkedIn post. Super fascinating. They're doing podcast hosting for some Salesforce, PayPal. They're really fantastic people over there, so we're excited to start hosting with them but also utilizing their tools to build up blogs, audio snippets, things like that. I'm their biggest fan, and we're just getting started with that. Like you said, it's all about social sharing, bite- sized information. I get it. People don't have time to always listen to the entire hour. But what we have to say matters, and giving those little nuggets in a little consumable bite, people are always going to see value in that and the takeaway, so it builds your audience that way, too. That being said, hey, Matt, thank you so much for just this episode in general about toilet seat thinking. We talked about podcasting. We talked about just building a brand in general. If people want to reach out to you or if they just want to ask about other questions, what's the best way to do that?

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, absolutely. If you're watching the video, you can see on the bottom here, our Facebook is The eCommerce Podcast. You can reach out there. Or just head to my website, mattedmundson. com, or you go to ecommercepodcast. net. Either is fine. But if you go to mattedmundson. com, all my social media links are there. You can connect with me however you wish. It would be great to hear from you.

Ryan Cramer: Great Instagram following. You got a great page on Facebook. So, yeah, go ahead and check him out, Matt Edmundson, The eCommerce Podcast, if you will, on Facebook, once a week. Is it a specific day every week that you're coming out with episodes?

Matt Edmundson: Yeah. Every Thursday, we do a new episode. So we livestream the recording on Thursdays and then... So you can watch it a week early because the audio podcast comes out a week after that.

Ryan Cramer: Gotcha.

Matt Edmundson: So, yeah, however you want to consume it.

Ryan Cramer: Easy enough. You're preaching to the choir. So I appreciate your time today. As always, a friend of the show now that you've been on my podcast. Always welcome back to it whenever you have other topics you want to cover besides toilets. That's always nice, but I swear to God, Matt, if I see a toilet seat show up on my front porch, I'm going to know who it's from.

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ryan Cramer: So it is what it is. But, hey, thanks so much for hopping on all the way from Liverpool, England, Matt Edmundson of The eCommerce Podcast. Thanks so much for hopping on today.

Matt Edmundson: No, it's been an absolute privilege and a treat. Thank you so much, Ryan. Really enjoyed it. Thank you.

Ryan Cramer: Thanks. We'll catch you next time. Again, everyone, thank you so much for watching on Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube, or Twitter but also listening on Amazon Music, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, again, wherever you consume any sort of podcast or listen to us. Make sure you rate us, the Crossover Commerce podcast with Ryan Cramer. That's me. I'm the host. We've done over 112 of these live episodes, but then you can catch them on audio format, just like Matt said. Go ahead and check those out on those platforms as well. Super excited to bring new and updating technologies to help enhance the podcasting experience, so I hope people can take away the highlights of these nuggets that we're talking about with people consistently every week two to five times per week that I'm bringing on guests as the show. Stay tuned. Actually, this week, we're going to be going live again on Thursday, I'm going to say, with episode 113, talking with Lesley Hensell of Riverbed Consulting. We're going to be talking about the challenges working with Amazon on the enforcement side. Lesley is fantastic, so if you get your listing suspended, who are you going to talk to? How are you going to get your things up and running inaudible kicked off for one reason or another? We're going to be diving into that as well. Lesley and her team are doing fantastic work over there. So stay tuned for that later this week. But go ahead and subscribe to us on social media, YouTube, Facebook, and Instagram to be notified when other episodes go live. I'm Ryan Cramer. This is Crossover Commerce. Thanks again for joining on episode 112, toilet seat thinking and why you should think the way things through that your customers are from their perspective. Take care, everyone.