All about Ecommerce payments⎜ Reach ⎜ EP 225

Ryan Cramer: What's up everyone. Welcome to my corner of the internet. I'm your host, Ryan Cramer, and this is Crossover Commerce presented by PingPong Payments. The leading global payment's provider, helping sellers keep more of their hard earned money. Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of Crossover Commerce. I'm your host, Ryan Cramer, and this is my corner of the internet, where I bring the best and brightest in the Amazon and e- commerce space. What does that mean for you, the listener? Well, if this is new for you and this is the first time you've joined us, that means you're going to get a lot of experts in the Amazon, e- commerce space in sourcing, logistics, marketing, advertising, international growth. You're listing optimization, you're sourcing logistics direct to consumer you name it. We're going to be talking about it right here on this podcast. Every episode we bring on a special guest or guests, where they talk about their expertise in their space, whether it be from their company or as a seller or an entrepreneur, or just have great thought leadership surrounding them. This is a live podcast, so if you happen to be listening to us and come across this page on LinkedIn, Facebook YouTube, or Twitter, welcome. Welcome back for all the wonderful listeners. This is episode 225. We're just going to keep on chugging along on this great podcast, 225. Because it's live, it is also engaging. So, if you have a question for myself or our guest, you can always ask in a comment section below, just go ahead and type out your question, or just let us know where you're listening from. That's always nice to see where people are tuning in from. We love having people drop in just to say hi, if you can't stay the whole time, not a problem, but if you are listening to us at later time, you can check out the replay on LinkedIn, YouTube, all your favorite podcast destinations as well as they get updated. Or you can just go to usa. pingpongx. com/ podcast for all of the transcripts, key takeaways, and past episodes, both video and audio. That's the best place to go. And every episode on here is presented by PingPong Payments. Quick shout to PingPong, cross- border payment solution, helping people keep more of their hard earned money. Speaking of hard earned money, we're going to be talking about that today. I'm really excited about the company and the person that we're talking with today. As everyone knows, PingPong is a global payment's service provider, helping people save time, money, and effort. A lot of it's on Amazon, different marketplaces all around the world, whether it's sending or receiving funds. That is an ecosystem we've built out here on our team, but there're other companies that do fantastic things as well, going into direct to consumer space, cross- border payments, FX, just knowing the ins and outs of everything in the entrepreneur space to help them grow when it comes to growing their business. So that is what we're going to be talking about today. Titled it, very simply straightforward, All About E- commerce Payments. So we brought on today, a special guest joining us from Austin, Texas, which feels like we're 90% of all tech companies now exist are. We're bringing on Matt Steinbrecher of Reach joining us today. Not a friend of the show yet, but joining us from Austin, Texas is the director of partnerships. Matt Steinbrecher of Reach. Matt, welcome to Crossover Commerce.

Matt Steinbrecher: Yeah. Thanks Ryan. Appreciate you having me on today.

Ryan Cramer: I almost said Aaron Rogers, but my man, the hair is flowing. If you're listening to this right now, this guy is impeccable. I said this in our first meeting that we talked about, has anyone ever called you here Aaron Rogers? And if so... that hair man, it's amazing. I wish I had more of it, just to even try something like that.

Matt Steinbrecher: Yeah, I should have left it wet and slicked back. It would've been perfect. Put a little gel in it.

Ryan Cramer: If you had a Green Bay Packer's hat on right now, I'd be-

Matt Steinbrecher: Yeah, I just get a little frame going.

Ryan Cramer: That's right. Hey, anything... I feel like Pat McAfee or anyone like that, who's talking with him on the podcast. Hey man, I appreciate you getting up a little bit earlier today from Austin, Texas. Matt, I know your background. I think it's pretty fantastic. We put it short and sweet on our show notes and description, but tell me a little bit about your background, kind of where you got to, have you always been in eCommerce and payment space? What's that background been like since either college or what got you interested in this space altogether?

Matt Steinbrecher: Yeah, I actually started with foreign exchange, oddly enough. Was studying economics in school and I actually went overseas to South Africa, and I was studying at the University At Capetown and I was there for about a year, year and a half. And during my time there, the South African rand, their national currency had depreciated from nine Rand to$1, to 11 Rand to$1. And so for me being-

Ryan Cramer: Somebody got richer.

Matt Steinbrecher: Yeah. That's cheaper beer in my books. So, it was pretty fascinating. And from there it just really started to spark my interest around the world trade organization, trade agreements, and really just all the things from a macroeconomic level, long story short, just got super fascinated with foreign exchange and how weird that market is, where there's a lot of fundamentals that play into it. But it's extremely speculative. Finished studying that went into a forex brokerage, was an FX broker for a while for both individuals and institutions. And then I met a couple guys from the Reach side. Different name back then, but maybe about six or so years ago now, something like that. And we were focusing on a lot of foreign exchange. They had some cool capabilities and then they had some really cool receivables capabilities and it was applying to e- commerce. I didn't really know much about e- commerce before that. So, it was a pretty new industry to dive into, but I've definitely dove in head first and it's been quite a fun learning experience.

Ryan Cramer: So, you've been there for how long? Six years is that what you're saying?

Matt Steinbrecher: Yep. Yeah, about six years.

Ryan Cramer: Look at that loyalty over there. Well, that's fantastic. Well, I mean like how big is Reach right now? You guys are pretty big or are you guys still a small but mighty team? What's that look like on your end?

Matt Steinbrecher: Yeah, it depends on your relativity of big, but we're still pretty small, overall. When I joined, we were maybe 10, 12 people. So we were just kind of a startup out of a garage kind of scrappy level. And I just thought that they had a cool business model and really just wanted to stick it out. Now we're about 140 globally.

Ryan Cramer: Wow.

Matt Steinbrecher: On offices in every continent except Antarctica, but-

Ryan Cramer: You're getting there maybe, sooner or-

Matt Steinbrecher: Yeah. Maybe someday.

Ryan Cramer: We'd have to colonize Mars first before we colonize Antarctica.

Matt Steinbrecher: That would be more interesting

Ryan Cramer: Stepping process, exactly. Intergalactic currency is the next step there. No, we joke around, but I think that's fantastic. I think it's really cool. So, you guys are servicing, what is Reach to the get- go? I know we were talking about this from the get- go, PingPong is in the currency space. Reach is in this currency space, so you got like the Spiderman meme out here. Like," Do we look like each other?" We actually do over... yeah. Are you we looking on the same person? That's not true. I think we service a lot of the same, but different clients in different capacities still. Like we focus on Amazon, but also supplier pay. You guys are more of the D to C, more the Shopify websites, e- commerce side of things in that regards. Correct?

Matt Steinbrecher: Yeah. So, we really focus on the direct consumer account receivables. So, like accepting payments from consumers and then making that shopping experience easier. The difference with players like Amazon is Amazon controls all of their payments. They have Amazon payments of course, as their own payment method. But everything you do through Amazon is all purchased as a consumer directly through their sort of payment rails. What we do is help direct to consumer e- commerce merchants, really focusing on," How do I compete with Amazon?" In the same way that a lot of logistics companies work directly with businesses and say," How do you compete with free two day prime?" That's pretty hard to do. We kind of do the same thing from a payment's perspective. And the idea is just to help mom and pop stores be a little bit more competitive. To be able to get their name and their brand out there, and sometimes these aren't mom and pop stores too. They could be billion dollar plus companies are publicly traded, whatever, but the idea is being able to give them that presence. Amazon's got offices all over the world. They've got way more money than most of the e- commerce market can afford. And so, the infrastructure they have behind them, the banks, all that foreign exchange is a very confusing thing. They've got probably a couple 100 people on their team that just do forex. Most of the businesses we're working with maybe have 200 people. So, it's a significantly different level of scale, and I think it's very difficult for brands and retailers in this day and age to really compete in that space, just to give the shopper the same experience they would have on Amazon, so it's a relatively frictionless experience and that's really what we focus on. It definitely does come into currency, offering a shopper their local currency, right when they land on a website or even when they see an ad on Google or Facebook or LinkedIn or whatever, being able to see that native currency experience is kind of like the first touch point. And then of course there's localized payment methods. Not everybody pays with credit cards and PayPal around the world.

Ryan Cramer: Shockingly, right?

Matt Steinbrecher: Yeah, right. And then just all the little details, consumer experience nuances, really understanding that people in Dubai are going to shop way differently than people in London or LA. And you need to be able to know that as a business that's selling internationally, because at the end of the day, if you're an e- commerce business, you're global from day one. Anyone can go to your website. So, whether you like it or not, whether you're shipping there, you may have organic traffic from international people. It's just how well are you actually capturing those consumers?

Ryan Cramer: Absolutely. That's a great point. I want to kind of take that and maybe run with it this episode, of Shopify came out with their 2021 report and I'm a big nerd in terms of data and analytics and following what that data means. You can't go wrong when you follow actual data and letting that lead to your decision. That being said, people are understanding," I don't know if I actually sell internationally. I just sell in the United States." Believe it or not, you have no dictate. You don't dictate that. It's the shopper who dictates that. So, what I mean by that is, a lot of the time when consumers looking around the world are looking at your website, if they happen to land on it, they might be located in Canada, your website's in United States, how do they shop? Will they send it to you? You are not focused on Canada, maybe, but your consumer if they make a purchase, you're still facilitating that transaction. It's coming to Canada. You are an international business. Shopify stated that most of their business growth opportunities happened to be, I think it was over a quarter of commerce is happening cross- border, not just international, cross- border from wherever that website was positioned or stationed. I think that's so crazy to think that people are not thinking about the possibility of my business can be bigger just with a couple tweaks here and there. Currency is one of them. Obviously localization, a couple of those other opportunities, sourcing logistics, but your brand and how people find you is so much easier, so much more nuanced. And it gets to you maybe not how the flow that you wanted to, but they're going to find you in one way, shape or form. So, what's that conversation like with some of these direct to consumer companies of," I don't know if we're ready for international growth or anything like that." What are you guys experiencing in that forum, if you will?

Matt Steinbrecher: Yeah. I think you definitely get a couple personas as always. One of them is certainly international is big and scary and we're just going to stick to what we know. That's generally the most common that you see from smaller businesses that are either fast growing and they've got enough problems on their plate that they don't really need to go international, which means that they're healthy, they're profitable, they're growing and they don't want to grow faster because they can't handle the scale yet. And then there's lots of businesses that look at the data and are a little more driven and they say," Wow, cross- border itself is growing at twice the pace of domestic. Why not capture that now?" Now yes, is it harder to sell cross- border than, than domestically? Yeah, there are absolutely hurdles. There're cultural differences. There're currencies, there's shipping timelines, all sorts of other stuff. But at the end of the day, consumers want products. And especially if you have a unique product, like if you have a pretty homogeneous good, basically anything that can be sold anywhere, toilet paper is a great example. Not a lot of people are super loyal to a certain toilet paper brand. They might know what kind they like, but they're not going to bend over backwards if it's going to take them an extra two weeks to get toilet paper from some other company. But when you're talking about clothes and fashion, nutraceuticals, beauty, cosmetics, all the different verticals that are very unique and can have a real brand presence to the actual consumer. You're going to have massive growth. So, I think a lot of businesses are starting to realize, especially obviously the pandemic, as with everything in e- commerce really fueled that, but a lot of businesses are starting to realize that cross- border is certainly not as scary as it once was, due to companies like ourselves, at least as one piece of the ecosystem and many others that we partner with around language localization, landing costs for duties and taxes, and all the different sort of complexities. You start to piece it together, and once you understand what the end product or shopping experience should be for your consumers, you can plug in the right vendors to make that happen while still having sort of that direct brand experience with them.

Ryan Cramer: Right.

Matt Steinbrecher: I think that's sort of the way that a lot of people are starting to move, but we're seeing a lot of brands too, that are just straight looking at data, especially if they have outside funding. And of course, they have access to better analysts from VCs or whatever it might be. That really helps them understand where the growth trajectory is and then better service those clients.

Ryan Cramer: Right. So, this conversation, what was it like, since you've been there a little while? You obviously know pre- pandemic kind of put on the back inaudible, I would say we're in the latter half, hopefully of a pandemic. What was that big worldwide notion in which you saw either lots of change and scramble, or you saw a lot of people seizing opportunity? What was that big moment for you guys to kind of support other businesses as they tried to figure out what was going on? And then as they went through these ups and downs, I would say the last two years, I call it the death by a thousand paper cuts of, there's all these little nuances," Hey, oh, by the way, this stinks and sucks on Amazon," or," Hey logistics, and so I can't get my goods until six weeks more than when I ordered it, even longer." People are trying to figure out all these different things and it's overwhelming. It's consuming of time. What's that transition maybe like 2019 to where we are today? Like fast forward three years?

Matt Steinbrecher: It's obviously been a massive shift just overall. Consumer trends have dramatically changed. Just the way that people want to shop. Everything from buy now, pay later's, to just change in general cultural behaviors, because of the fact that people are very much so focused on what's in front of them, which is generally the pandemic or lockdowns. And it's been a difficult road for a lot of different countries too. But I think the fundamental change is that from a shopper standpoint, many people that never shopped online before... even me personally. I would never buy a pair of shoes online, but I did for the first time for the pandemic, mainly because I'm the type of person that again, personal preference. I want to try it on. I want to see it. I want to make sure it fits my weirdly shaped feed and all that stuff.

Ryan Cramer: Yeah, exactly.

Matt Steinbrecher: So that's just my style, but there're other things that I would totally buy online and have bought online pre- pandemic, but you also have older demographics that really aren't into the whole Amazon era type of thing. And there're different areas in the world that typically getting packages to them is a lot more difficult. It needs to go to a distribution center and then they have to go pick it up because maybe they live in like a favela or something like that, where you don't have a delivery guy that comes to your doorstep because it's a little different in certain parts of the world. So, all of these little changes really kind of just dramatically shifted with the pandemic because everyone obviously was affected, and so governments around the world really started to lock down. And from a consumer perspective, you didn't really have a lot of options. You weren't able to... I mean, here in the US at least, in the very beginning stages in certain places, you were only allowed to go to the grocery store and everything else you couldn't really do.

Ryan Cramer: Right.

Matt Steinbrecher: So, if you needed to get anything that was a non- essential you would have to then have that shipped to your door. And so, it really forced people that never really wanted to buy online or just wouldn't think about it. They'd be like,"Oh, I'll just go to the store, after I'm done with grocery shopping." They now had to shift to online and then you have all these huge box office brands, the Nordstrom's, the Macy's, all those players in the world. They've got hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars in real estate assets that are shut down and because it's shopping, it's the last thing to open up. It's a non- essential business. And so, all of these major companies have to shift to online and digital presences. So now for everyone, that's more on their computers sitting at home more versus being out and about and around the world, you're starting to get more ads. So, all of those little weird changes really start to drive consumer behavior, and that makes a big difference in the way that brands need to react to capture that consumer behavior and capture their audiences, because obviously without the consumers, they're not going to go anywhere and they're not going to grow.

Ryan Cramer: Right.

Matt Steinbrecher: So yeah, that was on the consumer side and definitely some pretty staggering changes there, but I think brands have really been able to fully focus in and capture on understanding that they need to have a digital first presence for the most part, and then make sure that they're catering to that international audience, for sure.

Ryan Cramer: So in that regards, just to clarify for people, if you're working with these companies, you're not the processor, right? Like no one's putting in... are you the processor like a... I know the term, I'm trying to dumb it down to make sure if someone hears processor that when they hear about PingPong, they're like," Are you guys a processor like a Stripe or like a..." I'm trying to think of all the companies out there, you guys aren't that, correct? You're not taking credit cards and you're making those transactions, right? It's coming directly from bank account to bank account. Is that where you guys are working with in that point to point? Or how are we set up for Reach?

Matt Steinbrecher: No. So, it is taking credit cards. We would use different processors on the backend. So, like a Stripe for example, or lots of others. I mean there's Adyen, Worldpay, Checkout. There're thousands of them around the world.

Ryan Cramer: Right.

Matt Steinbrecher: The way we do it is we actually work with... so it's not just that. We'll also offer PayPal for example.

Ryan Cramer: Sure.

Matt Steinbrecher: And then we'll also offer Klarna. We were talking about buy now, pay later's, Klarna actually-

Ryan Cramer: Right. That was my next question.

Matt Steinbrecher: Yeah. All the other new ones that just came out of nowhere, seemingly right. They were growing well before the pandemic-

Ryan Cramer: They were there, but yeah, they really took off.

Matt Steinbrecher: Yeah. But the growth definitely was fueled by a lot of people having uncertainty around," Am I about to get laid off? My company shut down our office. We're having 10% of the staff just got laid off. Maybe I need to put this on installments or I don't need to, but it might be nice to." And just give them a little more financial flexibility. And so, there was a massive boom in all of those players. And of course there's some that are really good in certain countries and others. But our fundamental principle is when you come to a website, you want to be able to see all the prices in your local currency at a rate that's not only guaranteed, so it's not like," This is what you might pay." But it's a guaranteed rate for your foreign exchange. So, you understand that this is the price you see, this is the price that you will pay. But also that it's not a crazy markup. Anyone that's ever traveled in the world before, if you needed to get cash, when you landed in the new country and you try to do it at the airport and you Google what the rate is, you're like," Oh man, I'm getting ripped off here."

Ryan Cramer: Oh yeah.

Matt Steinbrecher: And that's the key. You don't want to feel like you're getting ripped off. You want to feel like you're getting a fair deal and you want to feel like you don't even have to even think about it because of the fact that you already saw your native currency when you landed on there. So, that split second psychologically is like," All right, I know how much this is. It's 40 euros or 40 Australian dollars," or whatever.

Ryan Cramer: Is it frustrating, do you think, from a buyer psychology, if you land on a page and you don't see your currency right away? For example, I'll speak to a personal preference of, I see it on there, and all of a sudden, I see a euro, not that a euro is a big difference, but maybe like an Australian dollar or you see some different currency facing that inaudible. And you're like," I don't know what that is when that translates to. Is it a lot? Is a little?" Is that something that you guys have to help people overcome with that? And that's why a solution like yours is a little bit more nuanced. It's even a psychological level of," Well, I don't know how much this actually is. I don't want to Google it, because that would just be pointless." So what's that like under your company?

Matt Steinbrecher: Yeah, and this is where we go back to the data too. Not only is it a psychological thing to be like," Eh, I don't know how much..." Like if I was to ask you right now," How much is 40 British pounds," or whatever. You might not know, or like what's the exchange rate to Malaysian ringgit? You're probably not going to know, but you might have consumers in Malaysia. So, the first thing is obviously the psychology. It's that split second decision of feeling more comfortable when you see that product. The second, is actually driven by data. There're tons of surveys and data points out there, that are focused around cart abandonment and bounce rates. But typically, if someone comes to your site and they do not know how much that product is in their native currency and they open a new tab, or if they're on their phone, they have to still open a new tab, and now they're completely on a different site and they're going to Google," How much is 40 euros to USD today?" And then all of a sudden they're on Google and now all of a sudden you've completely lost track. They've lost what they're doing.

Ryan Cramer: Exactly.

Matt Steinbrecher: And now you've lost that customer. You have an abandoned cart, you have a bounce from your website. Now again, if you have a very captivating product and that person's like," Yep, I'm going to buy this thing, man, no questions. I'm getting it." That's a different story, if you have something that's like that. But most people have stuff that is, again, it could be replaced by a competitor. And so, if you caught them from like an Instagram ad, which you paid$ 20, let's say cost per click to get them to your website, to buy something. And then they do that, well that in turn A, costs you money on your ad spends being unsuccessful for capturing your audience to a conversion. But B, it's also increasing your bounce rate on your site. So, there's a lot of psychology that plays into it. It's definitely driven by metrics. We do tons of case studies with our clients around this of just how bad is your bounce rate? And this is just the first point of localization when it comes to your actual payments. It's just showing them their native currency and it's usually not that daunting of a task to do on a website, but it goes a very long way. But yeah, that's kind of the two things that drive it.

Ryan Cramer: What about, when you're on a website, like any D to C site, do you guys work with the tax or show that reference to just because of... I would think this is kind of difficult in our end, because I know here at PingPong, we don't really handle that, that transactional and that tax component. So, when I start to think to the components of you need to collect tax, you need to collect all these other nuances. Each country might have a different rate. How does that work in that regards? I'm curious.

Matt Steinbrecher: Yeah, absolutely. Tax is the bane of existence for-

Ryan Cramer: It's the million dollar question.

Matt Steinbrecher: Yeah. And the crazy part too, is that kind of coming back to pandemic shifts, something else that fundamentally changed is that more and more countries now, because cross- border's growing at twice the rate of domestic, more and more countries are seeing imports coming in like crazy from e- commerce specifically. And so, all those governments are looking at all these tax free dollars that are coming in and shipping providers are making money. Brands overseas are making money, but they're not getting taxes on it. And so, they're really starting to crack down. Brexit was obviously the biggest one with direct to consumer, because now both the EU and the UK are requiring a lot of additional tax scrutiny to get products into the country. And that's absolutely something we help with. Again, from our perspective, the way we try to... we're shopper focused. Like make the shopper happy, give them the experience they get on Amazon on your own website, but you also have to make the merchant happy, because doing taxes internationally, plus foreign currencies, new payment methods, all this stuff is not easy. And so, if you look at it individually, it becomes a very daunting task. So, it's something that we kind of have available within our technical rails. We plug into a lot of different tax providers as well. It really just depends on the complexity of the merchant and what they're looking for. But at the end of the day, we offer solutions there, that would help them offset that burden to us or to one of our kind of third party tax solutions as well, should they feel like they want to use someone extra or just kind of outsource it in one stop shop. But we have the solutions for the tax, and that's another key component of the consumer behaviors that have shifted as well, is if you're charging a hundred dollars for a good, and let's just say, it's 10 bucks for shipping. As a consumer I'm seeing$ 110. It's like," Okay, great." But then if it's like," Oh, well the government also is going to charge me another 20 or 30% for duties and taxes on this order," as a consumer, I'm still not going to look at that as a government fee. I'm looking at that as the brand is charging me. The company is charging me this. And so, they're complaining to the company and the company's like," I got to pay taxes. I don't know what to tell you." And so, that's another weird nuance where a lot of businesses are starting to learn the actual best practice of this, and how to sort of bake those into prices. So again, psychologically, when I land on a site, instead of seeing it as 40 euros, I might see it as 45 euros. So, I know that my taxes are already baked into that price. And that way there're no surprises later in the checkout.

Ryan Cramer: Yeah, there's nothing worse than going through three or four payment, or your cart steps, and every time it goes to a different page, your price keeps trickling up-

Matt Steinbrecher: Yep.

Ryan Cramer: And you're like," What is changing? I'm not doing anything. I'm just putting my address." Which again, it goes back to all these different things, and domestically or internationally, depending on... I've seen this done before, depending on where you're located, based upon your zip code or address or country or whatever, that's where the press calculation stepped up and said," Well, shipping's actually going to cost$ 12 instead of$8 by mail. So, we have to actually increase a little bit more." So like you said, it's the buyer psychology, which it really is pretty interesting in that regards too. Do you guys touch anything about discounts or anything like that? Or is that all in the ecosystem, like with Shopify or everything like that? How do you work with discounts and making sure it's applicable to the country, the nature, and you're not... like 15% obviously is actually 15% or if it's a dollar amount, weighing this two options, I'm curious what you guys do in that realm.

Matt Steinbrecher: Yeah. So, it can definitely get complex at the end of the day, whether the business is using Shopify or Magento or BigCommerce or WooCommerce or any of the major platforms out there, or they built their own, which is still a pretty common practice. Basically, they get to own and control everything in their checkout. We don't hijack anything. It's completely all them, it's native. We keep it a super seamless experience for their shoppers. So, we're kind of in the background, but the way it works for like gift cards or discount codes and things like that is our APIs for the foreign exchange side, they help make sure that comes out nicely. Because if you do a$ 10 US dollar discount applied to an Indian Rupee order, it's going to come out kind of funky.

Ryan Cramer: Yeah.

Matt Steinbrecher: And so, the way that our APIs kind of manipulate those prices on the front end is that we basically make it look pretty for the consumer. So that way, when you're shopping for a product in the US at least, there's the whole joke around 9. 99 and having that sort of 99 cent rounding. We call it charming the value or vanity pricing. So, you can have it as 99 cents, but as a consumer in the US, I'm pretty familiar with that. So I would know," Okay, well, these, these guys are really trying to market to US shoppers," and so on and so forth, across nuance around the world.

Ryan Cramer: Yeah.

Matt Steinbrecher: And that's pretty important, but the key is that they still... you want to get businesses, you want to help them with their cross- border complexities, but you don't want to like hijack their whole business. You don't want to force them to do certain things. You want to try and be modular, and that allows them to sort of pick and choose with stuff like discounts, how they want to do it. And that's kind of where we come in and that's part of the process. Like, when you're integrating or onboarding, it's sort of like," What's your strategy today? What are your common practices? What's working really well? And how can we then add on top of that to not necessarily change your strategy, just enhance it?" And that's a key component that I think a lot of vendors in the cross- border space miss, quite a bit. It's sort of like an," Our way or the highway." And I think that's no the right approach with this day and age, because everyone's got different strategies.

Ryan Cramer: Right. Yeah, I know the strategies and kind of like the add- ons to certain websites of," Hey, do you want to round up your purchase to go to charity or do you want to pay..." I've even said," Hey, do you want to... when you're donating," and I don't think you guys touched the donation or nonprofit world, I would assume not. Or you could maybe actually be a crux in there, but a lot of people are saying," Hey, do you want to pay for the taxes on this and take it off the seller's component or the company's component you pay for that as well?" So, I've seen it all different ways of how do you emphasize of this maybe just a little bit more, just a little bit more for good causes? I don't think it's just a pocketing it, but do you guys support all those functionalities as well?

Matt Steinbrecher: Yeah, we don't work with charities per se, but we do a lot of stuff. We work with a lot of businesses, that'll do carbon offset shipping methods for-

Ryan Cramer: Sure. Like," Hey, you can save more if it all comes together," and-

Matt Steinbrecher: Totally.

Ryan Cramer: Like an Amazon checkout of,"Do you want to get the quickest or do you want to get in all in one package?"

Matt Steinbrecher: Yep, exactly. And that's kind of the same thing that we want to give brands the opportunity to do, because when Amazon did that with like prime day delivery with a single package versus getting one every other day, it was the same concept, and the businesses basically wanted to be able to have an option there that made sense to them and their shoppers. And that also helps with, I mean, there's a lot of sustainable brands out there. There's a lot of people that are trying to solve some of our issues with textiles and they obviously want to make sure that voice is heard and apparent. So, even though it might be a little bit more expensive for shipping, the whole point is that it's carbon offsetting, and we absolutely work with tons of businesses that do stuff like that, or add an extra dollar to your order, plant to tree, or whatever.

Ryan Cramer: Right, exactly.

Matt Steinbrecher: All sorts of good stuff like that is absolutely... again, it comes down to your audience, like who you're talking to, who you're trying to capture on your website and how can we best do that in the way that you want your brand to be perceived? And all that stuff is... these are all components of the consumer experience.

Ryan Cramer: Yeah, and I think like those are continuously evolving. I think listening to consumer, number one, is the best case in what you offer. I think that obviously can come in forms of what your brand is, or just hearing from customers like," Hey, it'd be nice if unprovoked write- ins and different things like that in terms of reviews." I think the two most major things that I've heard recently, and maybe you guys are helping facilitate this in that regards is the trends of,"I now pay later." Super popular, we kind of touched on it earlier. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that. And then also, blockchain and cryptocurrency. We don't have to talk on that because it's a little bit more nuanced and touchy- feely depending on who you are, but curious to hear the trends on, are companies asking for the support of one, both, neither? What's your thoughts on that?

Matt Steinbrecher: Yeah. Although, I do find the crypto world fascinating, the reality of it is that it hasn't quite picked up for direct to consumer purchases right now. There are obviously some exceptions to that. Tesla, for example, I've seen a lot of jewelry stores, will start to accept Bitcoin. At the end of the day, for your average consumer, they're probably not at this space yet of," Okay, I'm going to purchase this dress for whatever event that I'm going to in a month from now, or a couple weeks, I'm going to purchase this using Bitcoin." It's not quite at that space. And again, I just follow the data. It's not just me saying that, that's me looking at aggregate data across direct to consumer brands and saying," Where does this work and where does this not work?" Maybe it works for very high end fashion jewelry because someone's like," Cool. I made a hundred grand in Bitcoin. Let's go buy a nice ring." But it's not really for like everyday purchases. It hasn't picked up. Also, the other piece to it too is the banks. Not every bank has adopted cryptocurrency with open arms, mainly due to its difficulty tracing origin of funds. So, there's a lot of anti- money laundering stuff involved with it. So, banks try to stay away from that. But at the end of the day, again, from a consumer side, it certainly does fit well in certain businesses, but it's a still a pretty small pigeon hole in my opinion at this time.

Ryan Cramer: Would that be the... and this is hypothetical, and again, we can't control banks and the value of things. Is that the ultimate level playing field though, in terms of," Hey, cross- border payments, now it's no longer like any Rupee versus US dollar versus these?" It's just one currency across all ecosystems, virtually, digitally, whatever you want to call it. Is that the ultimate level playing field in your mind, maybe?

Matt Steinbrecher: Yeah. I mean, it's-

Ryan Cramer: I don't know too much about it. I'm just asking in the context of our conversation.

Matt Steinbrecher: Yeah. It depends how heavily it gets adopted, because you have to think too, like I'm based in Austin, Texas. So, if I want to buy more Bitcoin, because I can't sell something that I own and then get Bitcoin for it as easily, I have to then buy Bitcoin, which is tied to my US dollars. So, it still has an effect on like my fiat currency, my local currency of my country and then me loading up my account to be able to buy Bitcoin. So, I think until it becomes more of a tradeable commodity, like instead of them owing each other for dollars over restaurants or whatever, or using PayPal, you're using Bitcoin rails. Again, that mass adoption isn't quite there.

Ryan Cramer: Right.

Matt Steinbrecher: But I think we're getting there and once we do, that's where it'll become sort of its own universal monetary value that it already is, don't get me wrong. It's just that it'll be more widely adopted on an everyday use. And that's the key, to kind of transition a bit into the buy now, pay later. It's the adoption, which is super key. Crypto's there for a lot of people, but not quite there for everyone. And I think until... and a lot of that just has to do with sort of the mysteriousness around it or whatever, and not a lot of people understand," Well, what is blockchain? What are cryptocurrencies? How do they define their value?" And then the speculative movement on them of how fast they fluctuate obviously, is another thing. If someone puts a hundred grand into Bitcoin to make purchases, it can go down or up quite significantly in a very short time.

Ryan Cramer: All I know is you're supposed to buy the dip. That's all I know.

Matt Steinbrecher: Yeah, exactly.

Ryan Cramer: I have no idea what that... I'm just kidding.

Matt Steinbrecher: Buy the dip and hope it doesn't keep going down.

Ryan Cramer: It's a world I live in, and with a lot of people who are really interested in it, which again, it's fascinating. I even got a question on it yesterday of,"Do you guys support crypto payments?" And I said," Honestly, we don't, but we are very aware of it." It's just conversations of whose at the forefront, whose going to take that first plunge? You saw it with accepting, you need people to accept it, versus also people who are willing to receive it, or send and receive and so on and so forth. Anyways, a little caveat out there. I mean, because obviously some consumers are trying to make transactions, NFTS things like... again, that's a world that's still super young, still watching, really hard to under... I mean, not hard to understand, I know people are simple with it, but just mass adoption. I think that's a major thing with a company like both of ours is you have to have mass adoption in order to make it worthwhile. I hate to say that-

Matt Steinbrecher: Worthwhile. Yeah.

Ryan Cramer: To support, to make sure it's safe and secure and reliable, so on, so forth.

Matt Steinbrecher: Right.

Ryan Cramer: Going a couple other things back. I know we have a little bit more time, so if you're out there listening live, if you have questions for Matt or myself, or about current e- commerce currency, feel free to send those in the comment section below. I have plenty of questions lined up because we talk about this stuff all day long. So not a problem there. The trend, I won't say trend, I think the strengthening of the component of buy now, pay later. I wanted to kind of hop into that real quick. Buy now, pay later, for people that don't know, it's a component of almost like monthly installments payments to the entity you want to pay for, instead of all at once. Amazon just adopted Affirm, direct to consumer. I think Affirm's a pretty big one that you guys are probably working with. I know there's lots out there, but it's the notion of," Hey, instead of a thousand dollars purchase for that couch you might be buying online. Hey, make monthly installments of 100 bucks or 200 bucks and pay it off over a 10 or 5 months or whatever that looks like." Minimal fee associated with it to kind of space it out. What's that component like with you? Is it strengthening quite a bit? People are like," Oh, we'll maybe adopt it." Is there a lot more people that are opting into purchases now? Or is this kind of more of a high end focus for you guys?

Matt Steinbrecher: Yeah, I think it's definitely continued to grow. Part of it was... so there's a few different players out there. They all kind of have their own specific markets that they work with. So Affirm, for example, really good for probably over a thousand dollars purchases, but they're primarily in the US. So, they made tons of headway with Peloton, as a great example. Now, minus Peloton's PR backlash recently, with Peloton, basically you could get your at home gym type of thing and you could pay it with Affirm and it's like a$2, 500 thing, but you could pay it interest free. That was their deal with Peloton's, that you would always pay interest free. And that's awesome. If you have a large purchase like that for your everyday consumer, and you also go to the gym, lockdowns happened with COVID and you want to be able to use that new product. Well not everyone can drop$ 2, 500 on a new bike.

Ryan Cramer: That's just right, I want to see it, which didn't make sense to me that... like, I'm going to caveat, I'm assuming you're going to go to this. Doesn't make sense, a consumer's like," What's the catch? Interest rate?" A lot of the times there are people like," How's the firm making money. Doesn't make sense to us," lead to I'm assuming what you're going to talking about. So, go ahead.

Matt Steinbrecher: Yeah. So, the key is that everyone's always making money. I want to be clear about that.

Ryan Cramer: If it's zero, it's not zero. Like-

Matt Steinbrecher: Exactly.

Ryan Cramer: Like you guys I'm sure, are the same thing at Reach, PingPong, Reach very transparent companies of per transaction line by line, you know what you're paying, how much it costs.

Matt Steinbrecher: Yep.

Ryan Cramer: What it is, in the rates that only you can control. I'm assuming are the ones that are company rates and fees?

Matt Steinbrecher: Yeah.

Ryan Cramer: Just put it out there. It might be baked into a cost of front at the back end, but it's there somewhere. Someone's always taking their chunk. So, just little caveat out there.

Matt Steinbrecher: Yeah. That's just generally how finance works. It's-

Ryan Cramer: Nothing in the world is free. Let's just be honest.

Matt Steinbrecher: Yeah. It's keeping the consumer feeling like they're getting a good deal, but on the back end, everyone's still making the same margin. The way that you do that in like a Peloton type of example, or really anything, tons of mattress companies that would use Affirm or anything else, Affirm is charging... if they're going to do an interest free sort of guarantee, Affirm is going to charge essentially the interest to the brand. So, instead of charging the brand maybe 4% to capture that transaction from the consumer and handle the financing for them, they might charge them 5%. So, they're getting an extra percent on top of the whole thing, and they get that cost up front from the brand. Now, the brand gets the benefit of saying," Oh, well you can pay interest free and installments over 20 months," or whatever. And so it's kind of a win- win. Like Affirm gets the market adoption. The brand gets more consumers, and the consumer's happy because they feel like they got an interest free deal. But at the end of the day, it's just baked into the margins.

Ryan Cramer: It's a marketing push to get them over the top to make that initial purchase. Again, they'll eat the cost, just call it a marketing cost of X. Like you and I in partnerships, somewhere along the lines of, if you get a referral, someone from an outside entity, they may not have came and purchased to you directly, anyways. So, almost like an affiliate, very high level affiliate partnerships, marketing backend.

Matt Steinbrecher: Yep.

Ryan Cramer: Who's going to be paying with it? It's the same thing with like Rakuten or Cashback. Cashback is not magical. It doesn't magically appear. It's the brand that's giving half to, in this example, Rakuten. Half of it goes back to consumer. I could tell... I can dispel all the notions all you want. Money's coming from somewhere, everyone. It's just the apparent of it. But how people feel when they receive it's like," Oh my gosh, this is so nice. Like double cash back." Yeah, more brands ponying up for it. A firm, if they're saying 0% commission, obviously, they're charging Peloton. In this case, you said 4%, which is quite a bit-

Matt Steinbrecher: Yeah.

Ryan Cramer: In that regard. So, Affirm is coming out, scot- free. They just have to be on the hook if people don't pay, I'm sure there're terms and services for that. Is that how that works? How does that work in that regards for educational purposes of," Oh my gosh, after five months and I don't pay my six months, what happens?"

Matt Steinbrecher: Yeah. A firm's a little different where it's like a straight... for firm's, it's actually like a straight loan. It's like a micro loan. So, obviously you'd have a mortgage for your home, but that's a significantly larger investment that you're paying over 30 years. But think of it as a micro mortgage. So what they're doing is they're not pulling money from your credit card, which is kind of what some of the other buy now, pay later's do. They're pulling money directly from your bank account. Basically, what that means is that they can overdraft your bank account because you're giving them authorization to pull money out. But if you don't pay, now they're going to come after your credit. That's why it works really well in the US because everything is driven by our credit scores here. Not every country has that. So, that's why Affirm is not in every country.

Ryan Cramer: Yeah.

Matt Steinbrecher: Because some people might be like," I don't care what my credit score is. I do everything in cash. I was just using this to scam some company," or whatever. That's usually how it works, but that's why it's a little bit of a different type of buy now, pay later. And I think that's important for consumers to know overall, is Affirm is awesome. I love the brand to your point. It's absolutely... it's kind of like a referral affiliate type of model. In that case that maybe they didn't charge Peloton more, maybe they used that as leverage to boost their brand.

Ryan Cramer: Yeah, to be the exclusive provider.

Matt Steinbrecher: Right, to be the exclusive provider, boost their brand. And then, they're capturing that consumer over time because it's like,"Oh, well I used Affirm for Peloton and now I want to use it for this new mattress or this new furniture," or whatever.

Ryan Cramer: They're in their ecosystem. You have an account-

Matt Steinbrecher: My next investment, and now I'm comfortable as a consumer. I already know that brand instead of trying to use someone else. So, that's the other piece to it, but there's a key distinction too, in terms of with them, they would actually come after you, like you didn't pay your mortgage. Or you're not paying your rent, and basically, you're going to get creditors that come after you now, and fees. Fees pile up, pretty standard stuff. You don't pay your auto loan. You don't pay your mortgage. You're going to have some bad consequences.

Ryan Cramer: Yeah, it's a really high percentage of you have fees. Exactly.

Matt Steinbrecher: Yes.

Ryan Cramer: Because, essentially it's just their cost of where the money's tied up into and what they're owed. So, that's why credit cards and everything like that, if you pay off full, no one charges you. Everyone's making... they're making money. Like you said, if you're paying off a full, credit card company is not making money off of me. They're making money off the merchant and the transaction. That's it. You win as a consumer, but when a credit card company... again, look on Netflix and find the How Money Works documentary. And there's a lot of this stuff that I find super fascinating. Credit companies will start to target people with offers with great credit card history that will pay off in full, that benefits the credit card company. They'll also target people who are known to not pay off their credit cards in full, thus, their fees might be a little bit lower and they're okay with that, because over time they'll still make money off of them. There's a lot of psychology around that. But in the Affirm model, like you said, it's more of a... I would call it like an Aaron's or like one of those like," Hey, rent my TV or something like that." You pay in installments. You're not buying the good outright, but you're renting it. So, you're renting equity that you may not have, but you have to pay it off overtime or there're fees associated with it. Same with credit.

Matt Steinbrecher: Absolutely. Yeah. Same exact concept. Credit card companies are a little more... they're a little more aggressive about it. I actually just saw that the other day. So I was like," Oh, I should watch this, because obviously I'm in the business."

Ryan Cramer: You should.

Matt Steinbrecher: I know about all this stuff, but-

Ryan Cramer: It's fun, sad, and scary at the same time.

Matt Steinbrecher: Yeah. That's-

Ryan Cramer: That's the world we live in.

Matt Steinbrecher: I want to see what they say and how they break that down in 30 minutes.

Ryan Cramer: Oh, same thing with the Boeing documentary. Again, this is a different thing. Boeing documentary... any documentary makes you really start to think about," Do I really want to A, use a credit card again or B, fly again." Whatever you're watching or doing, but it is kind of like, I'm going to take... you just got to be smarter about like what's going on in the world. Just be aware. I think that's the thing. Like in that case, do you feel like there's education around it enough or people are not aware of what that does? Do people get in a lot of trouble? I'm curious if you guys have data on around that.

Matt Steinbrecher: Yeah. I think people aren't aware and it's the sort of," Oh wow, this is too good to be true." It's just like the whole Nigerian prince cruise ship sort of thing, or all of those scams. A lot of people still fall for that today. And there's lots of stuff like that, that a lot of consumers just kind of fall into. And that's where some of these people are making a lot of money. At the end of the day with buy now, pay later, the big focus is as with everything, you got to look at it as it's just like a credit card. You are taking a line of credit. If you can't afford something, that's a thousand dollars today. And you know you won't be able to afford it in six weeks, don't try to buy it. That's probably not a good idea, unless you're willing to take on the consequences. So, if it's like," Okay, well I know if I don't pay it off in six weeks, on my credit card, I am now going to have to pay interest on my credit card," which is 30% or whatever. And then that compounds over time and you go into debt. But in general, I think it's easy for consumers to fall into these traps, because the persona from the financial institutions is," This is too good to be true." And in some cases there are really good deals. I have the luxury of knowing a lot of these traps, so I can navigate when there are good deals. And when there are not good deals, that's a whole other story. But you got to basically think about it as, if something sounds too good to be true, oftentimes, it's a lie. And you got to think of it a little bit more defensively, especially when it comes to financial institutions. When a credit card, when Amex is like," Sign up now and we'll give you a thousand bonus points and blah, blah, blah." And it's like," Oh, but your interest rate is 50%, because we know that you've defaulted on three other credit cards with other banks," or whatever. They might be using it against you and they certainly know your data. That's the thing. Everyone talks about big data.

Ryan Cramer: inaudible.

Matt Steinbrecher: These guys know exactly who you are. They know you better than you do.

Ryan Cramer: And that can be used against you, or it can be used as a helpful tool again.

Matt Steinbrecher: Yep, it goes both ways.

Ryan Cramer: Education wise, again, anything can be used as a weapon, but it can also be used for good. Well, I'm curious. I'm going to turn the tables a little bit. How does this affect, maybe like a business, like in installments, and this is what I've talked about before, especially in Amazon paying Affirm like, or using Affirm, if I'm a consumer or a brand, and I allow Amazon's accepting Affirm, they're not getting the full payment yet obviously. It's not all up front. On the direct to consumer side, I'm not sure how that works in terms of payouts. Is it only when they get paid that installment, then they'll release that percentage of the revenue to you? How does that work on that end?

Matt Steinbrecher: So, the way that all these buy now, pay later's generally justify their higher fees. Let's just say for, for international cross- border, the topic of this conversation. Generally your credit card fees are like at minimum 3% to accept a credit card from another country. Usually, you're going to be 3.5, maybe 4%, depends how big your business is. But your raw costs from the credit card companies is about 3%, for after pay. Klarna, some of these other players in the buy now, pay later space. Affirm, is not as much cross- border yet, but they're getting there. They certainly will capture that market share, especially with Amazon piggybacking. In the cross- border space, these guys are saying," Okay, well, you're going to pay 3% for standard credit card, but I can lure more customers to your website and convince them to purchase your products, but I'm going to charge you 6% or 5%, or 4%." But it's still significantly larger in terms of the cost. However, I will pay you immediately upon receiving that order.

Ryan Cramer: Interesting.

Matt Steinbrecher: So, as soon as the goods, like if we're talking about an e- commerce merchant, as soon as your package leaves your warehouse, that money's in your bank account, but we'll take on all of the consumer risk.

Ryan Cramer: Right.

Matt Steinbrecher: And that's where they justify the higher fees.

Ryan Cramer: Okay. So kind of a give and take. I guess in that capacity, if you're maybe in the higher good section, maybe that's worthwhile of what that conversion could potentially mean for you, that lift, if you will. Very fascinating. That's why I'm actually curious on the Amazon side, if that's the same truth to that matter, because if they're in payment three and they're not that... basically, revenue gets tied up into not just inventory. Now it's tied up into a drawn out process. And again, that's what it is. It's drawn out. You're not getting instantaneously once that decision's made here on March 2nd, I might get only the full funds in October. Like whoever knows what the terms are, but that's for one product instead of like in March," How does that affect my books? How does that affect all these other little things that you have to pay out on, all the nuances?" And that's why I'm curious about like, how that backend works. What about in that capacity, does cross- border or like currency conversion, does that fluctuate depending on... like, that's why I'm assuming Affirm only works in the US dollar, because if you're talking about the Canadian dollar," Oh, the Canadian dollar's strong one month and it drops the next month, because of riots in the capital or like literally world stuff like that, where if I had bought something overseas, like in Ukraine or Russia." Something like that where something geopolitical affects currency, not in my backyard, but it affects something current. How does that work in that regards, you think?

Matt Steinbrecher: Yeah, absolutely. And that's why some of these players don't have as robust of cross- border solutions yet with by now, pay later, because again, again, essentially they're giving you a microloan in some way, shape or form. Whether they're doing it on your credit card, like Afterpay does, or they're pulling it straight from your bank account, like Affirm, but from a cross- border perspective, there would be some fluctuation as a consumer. Because the intention is like if I were to pull a 100 US dollars out of a bank account every month, well, if your bank account's in Canadian dollars, that's going to be like, maybe it might be 125 CAD today, next month it might be 140, who knows. And that's where there's a super speculative market. Foreign exchange rates move every nanosecond, it's fast, and it's significantly faster and more complex than your general stock market.

Ryan Cramer: Yeah.

Matt Steinbrecher: But in general, I think what a lot of the buy now, pay later's are doing and Klarna's done probably the best global expansion because they started in Europe, where there's already so many currencies and so many nuances and consumer behavior, in such a small geographic region. That they did a really good job in terms of global expansion. I'd say they're probably the elite player right now on that side of the world, but they're slowly getting into the US. And they just launched in Canada a couple months back and have been really throttling up there too. And what they do is instead, they would sort of, let's say the product is 1000 US dollars, and they want to pay in four installments at 250. What we would do, and what Klarna would do, and the way we would kind of help with this on the Reach side too, is we would convert that 1000 US dollars today, into Canadian dollars and then allow those installments to be... so if it was whatever Canadian dollars, the installments would be the same for the consumer, but the merchant would still get that 1000 USD back. So that way again, for my books, I got to go and pay my suppliers. I know what my margin percentages is. I know what my marketing spend is. That helps keep transparency between both buyer and seller. But again, someone's got to take that risk over time. And that's where it can get complex with some of this stuff and understanding the financial market nuances, and how to do them properly. And that's where we're just all about the education and transparency of unveiling, the curtain.

Ryan Cramer: I know. Well, that's what we do here too, and I would talk probably all day on this, obviously. You and I talk in the same industry quite a bit, and it's just so fascinating, not coming directly coming from the e- commerce side into FinTech, super fascinating for me to just learn new things every single day, but trying to break it down for people who are... for example, a question yesterday came to me," I'm in Pakistan, I'm selling in Australia as well as the UAE. Can I send currency here? Not here? What like..." I'm like," All right, breathe. Let's break this down." And so, it's complexity like that, because that's how businesses now operate. It's not as simple as walking down the street, go to your bank, pull up money, pay local vendors, whatever. It is now, completely more complex. Webs are everywhere. You just have to understand, where the money's coming and going and what that scaling nature looks like. So Matt, again, talk forever with you. I know we're already close to the hour mark. If people are interested in Reach, which I know they will be after listening to this, how do they get in touch with you and how do they learn more... either in touch with you or how they learn more about it?

Matt Steinbrecher: Yeah. Best way to get in touch with me directly is just through LinkedIn. Happy to help, give some education or pass along material, or advice. If you want to learn more about Reach, you can check out our websites withreach.com, but the brand is Reach. Don't get that-

Ryan Cramer: Brand is Reach, but it's with Reach.

Matt Steinbrecher: Yeah, exactly. It's like within Reach globally.

Ryan Cramer: I like that, but hey, you're not PingPong and trying to understand... like you get calls all the time about PingPong-

Matt Steinbrecher: Right.

Ryan Cramer: Equipment and stuff like that. PingPong going across table, cross- border, you get it. We all get this, people get it. It's funny but confusing. Let's just call it.

Matt Steinbrecher: Yes, it's a good play on words.

Ryan Cramer: There we go. Yeah, withreach. com.

Matt Steinbrecher: Yeah.

Ryan Cramer: Okay, perfect. Gotcha. Matt, thank you so much. I call everyone who makes it through an episode with me, a friend of the show, now. So, you're now a friend of Crossover Commerce. Happy to have you on anytime and talk and nerd out with me and my corner of the internet on international e- commerce payments. Matt, thank you so much. I learned a lot. I know it doesn't seem like... I'm just sitting here and I'm like, that's super... buy now, pay later, man. Super fascinating. I love the evolution. I think it's helpful, but it's also just another thing, we have to be worried and to be aware of about. So, thanks for kind of shedding some light on some of those topics today and people will be reaching out with you. Thanks so much for hopping on today.

Matt Steinbrecher: Cool. Yeah. Thanks Ryan. It was a great time.

Ryan Cramer: Awesome. Thanks Matt.

Matt Steinbrecher: Take care.

Ryan Cramer: And thank you. Thank you everyone for hopping on Crossover Commerce. This is episode 225. Cool little milestone on every 25 episodes. I feel like it's always guaranteed to be a good episode, I should go back and look. Every 25 episodes seems like this little marker that I have down, but thanks Matt Steinbrecher of Reach, just Reach, but it's at withreach. com. So, make sure everyone check that out. If you're listening to this, it's the website and how to contact Matt, is in the show notes below. And then everything on social media right now, if you're watching live, go ahead and connect with Matt on LinkedIn. I think that's the profile we used for him. So, go and connect with him on LinkedIn and reach out to him, and directly. That being said, this is episode 225. We have one more episode this week. Don't you think that we have more content coming your way? Because we do. Tomorrow, we are going to be talking with Colby Flood, of Brighter Click, How To Test Purpose Using Audience Creative and Copy Structure. A little more nuanced in terms of what we're going to be talking about. A little bit different from the eCommerce payments, but that's what this podcast is all about. I call it my corner of the internet. I know my place here, but I like to bring in really cool people to learn, understand, and grow, and help people grow their business. So, with that being said, everyone it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for helping Crossover Commerce. We'll catch you guys next time on another episode. Take care.